1994 LeSabre - Advice desperately needed

[IndyBuick]

Hi,

I posted about a month ago or so about my the SES light coming on. Now the car is getting very difficult to start and running more and more roughly. It will sometimes stall while idling at a traffic light. I took it to a Ma and Pa shop and they couldn't read the computer so practically took the entire dash apart looking at wires before finally giving up saying they thought it was the light green wire causing trouble.

This car has been at the shop (Goodyear) numerous, numerous times; I went through my receipts & they total over $3100.00 for repairs related only to the SES light coming on. Below is what has been replaced on my car since 2000 when I bought it, some things more than once.

This car is driven 5,000 miles a year or so if that. I've checked the fluid levels, air filter and made sure the wires were tight. I even disconnected the negative battery cable for a few minutes today to erase any codes stored. I'm at wits end because it has cost so much money and no one has been able to figure it out. It was at the Buick dealer where I bought it less than a year ago and they couldn't find any codes stored despite the light coming on. Yet it continues to get worse and worse. The car has 95,000 miles on it.

PCV Valve
Fuel Filter
EGR Valve
Spark Plug Wires (twice)
Spark Plugs (three times)
PCM Computer Module (three times)
Front & Rear Valve Cover Gaskets
Throttle Position Sensor
Throttle Body Cleaning
Throttle Body Gasket
Ignition Module
Coils (twice)
Crankshaft Sensor
Cam Sensor

Thank you for any advice you might be able to offer. I don't know what else to do and cannot keep spending money trying to fix it. This is my second Buick and I really like it but can't seem to get it repaired properly.

[Sciguy2]

Hi,

I have a 94' Century that was having a hard time running for a while. I can completely relate to your frustration as I too took it to several shops before figuring out how to fix it myself.

Could you tell me specifically what is happening? For example, sitting at the stoplight... mine had issues there too (or just sitting in traffic).

I have a couple of ideas but want to hear the full story before typing it all out and possibly running up your repair bill unnecessarily.

-Joe

[bobc455]

Well I have to suggest a different approach.

Bring it to the dealer (not Goodyear or mom & pop) and say "My car
has the following symptoms .... Please analyze and correct the problem."

From there, let them do all of the diagnosis (only tell them the symptoms, it is their job to figure out the problem). If they tell you that the problem is the XXX (whatever part), then you get the car back and the issue still exists, simply return to the dealer and say "I requested that you fix the problem and you did not. Please refund 100% of the bill, and please fix my problem."

A dealer has all of the diagnostic tools and procedures to find any problem like this. (Goodyear may not, they may be just "winging it"). And if they replace a part and it doesn't fix the problem, there is NO REASON you should pay for their faulty diagnosis.

The problem is that if you walk in and tell them that "I need a new XXX", they can bill you for the part and labor since they did exactly what you asked them to.

To be fair, if they want to charge an hourly rate for diagnosis, that is not unreasonable. Many problems require troubleshooting, and this does not have to be free. It takes time to check grounds, continuity, corrosion, and all that stuff, and it does not have to be free labor by them. However the only labor you should have to pay for is the one that fixes your problem.

One more thing- I would always request that they give you the old parts- that way if they install something and it doesn't work, you can always give them the option of re-installing the old part and returning the new one for credit with their supplier when you demand a 100% refund for their faulty diagnosis. In many states they must give you this option by law.

In my opinion, when the SES light comes on and you can't read codes, I suspect the engine management computer immediately (or possibly the SES light itself). Since the PCM was replaced 3 times already, perhaps there is a different computer (ECM?) that is the problem. But let them figure that out, not you.

-Bob C.

[IndyBuick]

Thank you for your responses!!

When I take my car in I usually have no idea what the problem is and do not request a certain part to be replaced. They tell me it's this or that, and sometimes that the part they already replaced must be bad. It makes me wonder if the parts they use are remanufactured and maybe they are bad but when the problem still exists I have to wonder that they don't really know what is wrong.

The Ma and Pop shop have problems reading any computer for some reason. I think their scan tool is only for OBD 1 and most cars are OBD 2 now. Mine happens to be OBD 1.5 because it was an inbetween year. So, I'm thinking that is the issue there. Whatever the case, I just don't think they understand the computer and how to read it.

When I am at a stop light, for instance, sometimes the speedometer will shoot up toward 90 and then all the dash lights blink on and off and then the car stalls. Sometimes, when the SES light is on, this will happen and then the light goes off and the car runs fine. It seemed to me like this happened more when the car had gotten wet, either rain or the carwash but now it seems like it doesn't matter. It seems to stall within a few minutes of starting it and driving. As though once it is warmed up it runs fine. It doesn't stall very often and usually restarts quickly.

When I try to start it, I have to try 4 or 5 times before it will start and sometimes hit the gas to keep it going.

It idles roughly and if you look under the hood with it running can see the engine shake, not majorly but enough so that when driving the car vibrates.

It seems to have good power and plenty of get up and go.

The wires, though not very old, look sort of worn to me, but they sholdn't need replacing so soon.

I drive the car at most, twice a week for 20 miles or so.

Sometimes, when stopping, the brake pedal sinks very quickly and it feels like the car isn't slowly down. But this happens only once in a while. Almost like it has too much vacuum, the pedal is really soft and I must push it really hard to stop. Not a common occurance.

When I turn the key to start it the speedometer sort of jerks between 0 and 30 or so.

This has been an ongoing problem for me since buying the car in 2000 off lease at the dealer.

The fuel filter, air filter, coolant, trans fluid, oil, etc. have been changed according to schedule.

Thank you for all your help.

[Sciguy2]

Ok, that blows my theory of a bad fuel pump out of the water (partially at least).

When you talk about the dash lights blinking and the speedomoter needle jumping, it sounds like an electrical problem... my guess is a bad connection or a short somewhere in the main wireing. That's probably why they replaced the computer 3 times... but to tell you the truth, I've had my comptuer replaced once for that stupid SES light and it wasn't it.

The brake pedal sinking involves the braking system, which while not entirely separate...I am having a hard time mentally connecting it to the electrical problem suspected earlier.

The engine running roughly / taking a few times to start...that sounds more like insufficent fuel pressure. This is what I was thinking originally. A brief story: my 94 century (also w/ the computer between 1 and 2) began running rough and occasionally dying while driving heavy stop and go traffic (such as in rush hour on the freeway). Turns out, if you listen, when you turn the key to ON, you should hear the fuel pump spin up to prime the fuel lines. It only stays on for a couple of seconds then shuts off. Well when the car died... when I turned the key to ON, the fuel pump just made a click, no whirr sound. Waited 5-10 min., it was back to normal. Solution to that prob.: drop the tank, replace fuel pump (and filter while I was at it). About $110 in parts and 3 hours of labor cuz the stupid bolts were hard to get off. HOWEVER... that was for my problem which was only dying w/ no reason. The scanner I bought for reading my car's computer didn't tell me much of anything. The codes it kept reading were related to the Quad Drivers, and most likely a vacuum leak problem which was not life threatening.

In this case, I agree with the previous post in that you take it to the real dealer and let them check it out. Write down all of this stuff and tell it to them / give the mechanic the notes. There is a lot, he might need it! Also I would mention the list of parts that have been replaced that haven't solved the problem. Because even I went the dealer route once and they started with the basics (plugs and wires) when it was something else, it just wouldn't do it for them. THEN if that doesn't work, invest in a scanner for your car (I use the Actron system, it's not the pro-level stuff, but it'll tell you what's going on in the engine). That'll run probably around $100 and is more for the OBD-I series but covers GM to 95 I believe...at least it works great on my 94 Buick Century and my dad's 94 Olds' Cutlass Ciera.

-Joe

[guyopel]

I would ask the Dealer to check the connectors at the P.C.M. ( Computer ) for damage and corrosion . I have seen the P.C.M. cause this problem and when you have a Scan tool connected all input and output voltages will be out of range of normal voltages and will not set codes or when you try to read codes " No Data " is what is on the screen . Poor connections at the P.C.M. should be checked first . I know you stated that the P.C.M. had been replaced 3 times but have you car checked at the Dealer. Good luck and report back . HTH

[IndyBuick]

Hi!

I wanted to clarify what is happening with my car because it might help with figuring out what is wrong with it. Friday, I warmed my car up since it hadn't been used for a few days and it's cold here. The SES light didn't come on at all, the car started right up and ran fine. I shut it off when it was warm.

Saturday, the car started right up, ran well. After driving a short distance above 45mph the light came on after I began driving about 30mph. Upon restarting an hour later the didn't want to start. The light stayed off for several miles before coming on.

After the car sat for another hour, it didn't want to start, the light stayed on and it acted as though it would stall. It does sometimes stall.

It seems as though it is happening after driving at higher speeds and then resuming lower speeds. What sounds like it would cause this? I've yet to take it to the dealer because of cost. I plan on getting it in there as soon as I can, however, if it is something fairly simple that might be the cause, I can do it myself. Is this an EGR symptom or another sensor? My car has long life coolant in it, if that matters any.

I really appreciate all the help with this, thanks!!