revised engine hard to turn over

Duco55

Active Member
Hi All, I am a bit further and would like your idea regarding my hard to turn engine. It is a 263 of the last year. It was revised in 2008 and all this time I turned it over ( by hand) regularly. During the revision everything was done professionally with good new parts, by experience staff. Everything you expect was done. first oversize, skimming, new seats (leadfree), new rods. you name it.
I always found it hard to turn, but had no experience with 8 cyl,s ( I did a XK 6cyl once and that was easier.). But now, with new solenoid and fresh battery, it hardly turns!
What I know is this: My battery is only 570 CCA (which is low as 750 is advised). I used a 6 volt Optima in parallel, which made no difference. I also used a 12 Volt in parallel, but the jump cable was not adequate. I will repeat that with better cable and will source a 990 CCA battery.
Somebody (experienced restorer) suggested that the oil could be oxidized (?) which would made the engine turn difficult and should disappear quickly when it runs.
I tried to turn the engine using the starter one time before (couple of years back) and at that time it turned better, but not fast enough to start. I had a discussion here at the time, about how fast it should run. The idea then was to use a 12 volt in parallel (see above) or revise the starter to hi torque (3th field?), which I did not do ( yet).

Any advise would be welcome, but why is a basically fresh engine so difficult to turn ( BTW removing the spark plugs helps, but not enough). Can I do something? without immediately remove the engine?
Any Idea? Everything else is sort of done, so I want to try to start her up!!
Thanks in advance
en met hartelijke groeten en Blijf Gezond!!
Duco
 
I have almost no experience with the straight 8s, but here is a go anyway. I would take a torque wrench and see how much it takes to turn the motor over without plugs. I would look into the grounds or starter if it turns at less then 35 pounds.
 

Frankh

Active Member
After you had it rebuilt did it turn over ok? If yes then something is seized up or rushed up. If no it sounds like the rebuilder screwed something up. Taking the plugs out and turning over is a good idea. It doesn’t sound like an electrical or battery problem because it won’t turn by hand
 

yachtsmanbill

Active Member
Stupid first step... squirt some oil in the cylinders; HELP? The only other two issues would be piston rings with an inadequate end gap, or a bearing thats too tight. If the engine was out, I'd recommend just loosening the rod bearings enough to roll it over. If it frees up the bearings were set too tight or the connecting rods resized too small. The big end on the rod being re-sized would be something like XXX.0150" to XXX.0158" as an example. Thats EIGHT TEN THOUSANDS or just over 3/4 of one thousandth of an inch. A fleck of dirt or a hair under a bearing shell can make the whole unit too tight
 

Greg43

Member
Stupid first step... squirt some oil in the cylinders; HELP? The only other two issues would be piston rings with an inadequate end gap, or a bearing thats too tight. If the engine was out, I'd recommend just loosening the rod bearings enough to roll it over. If it frees up the bearings were set too tight or the connecting rods resized too small. The big end on the rod being re-sized would be something like XXX.0150" to XXX.0158" as an example. Thats EIGHT TEN THOUSANDS or just over 3/4 of one thousandth of an inch. A fleck of dirt or a hair under a bearing shell can make the whole unit too tight
It sounds like it has been parked for a long time, oil does evaporate (thicken) over time. Oil in the cylinders is a move in the right direction. You may also take a tip from the racing guys and once you get it cranking turn it until you start to see oil pressure. I worked for a guy who believed engines should be "tight" so it was my job to drive them until l they stalled and the when they cooled off drive some more. You may have to go back in to diagnose it. Tight is not right!
 

Duco55

Active Member
Thanks for the idea's. Some details:
- It turned over ok when done.
- approx 5 years ago ( 7 after the rebuild) The starter did turn it but it was not very fast ( not enough to start)
- At that time a added some oil in the cylinders ( and moved it), 2 years ago I even gave every cyl a squirt of WD40
- I visited the rebuild several times and in my memory they were very exact and using the b ook etc. So I would trust them
- It took over 100 Newton to turn the engine by hand. Somebody told me it should be around 70. Without the radiator I tried to turn with my air ratchet but that was not possible ( and is not advised)
- I will try today with a fresh loaded battery , but take the plugs out, just to get some speed.
- Good idea to test the starter . I remember the procedure is in the book. ( will have to take it out if there is no improvement)
- Is it an good idea to drain all oil, take of the carter and loosen bearings a bit? Or would that be a bad idea?
Love to hear more
Thanks
Duco
 

Greg43

Member
The WD40 probably washed the lube off the cylinder walls. I would fill a pump oilier with automatic transmission oil and give each cylinder ONE full squirt then re-install the plugs and walk away for a week. If you still cant turn it with a long breaker bar appeal to wiser heads.
Good Luck
Greg in Minnesota
 

Duco55

Active Member
Yes, Thanks
I took the plugs out today and found that there still was oil on top of the pistons. I can turn the engine, it only takes enorm effort (>100 Newton).. Read the book today and found that maybe a 320 starter is a bit more forceful. ( would it fit?) but also al the basic checks ( Battery, cables, cranking motor, oil temp. press clutch down. and in the end the pistons and bearing. Will ty to find a real big battery and do all the checks one by one. And will find some automatic transmission fluid ( will it lossen thinks up a bit?)
oes somebody have experience with 2 Optima redtops in parallel? And, last question, connecting 2 6 v batteries in parallel will double the AH. Will it also double the cold Cranking Amps? ( provided good connectors and 50mm2 cable).
Last idea I had today was to maybe take the cranking motor off anyway, check and clean it, maybe new brushes ( cannot remember what state they were) and ask a starter specialist ( not far away) if they could add 2 field windings1 ( any thoughts on that?)

Met groet
Duco
 

Greg43

Member
It is good to see oil on top of the pistons. When you do get it to turn over be sure to cover the spark plug hole with rags as the oil can squirt rather forcefully. It is possible to run 6 volt starters on 12 volts but there is a possibility that the starter will burn out. All auxiliary systems must be disconnected as 12 volts will burn them out. I would also disconnect the belts as the problem may be a frozen water pump or generator.

Greg
 

suntreemcanic

Active Member
I have a 12 volt battery and have been using it on a six volt starter for many years and a lot of miles. You are completely safe to go with 12 volts, it spins the engine over faster. I assume this is a straight eight engine. When all the oil has drained down from the piston rings it takes quit an effort to turn the engine over, those dry rings create a lot of friction.
 

Duco55

Active Member
I used the 12 volt only a few seconds as the cable was bad. I like the idea of the waterpump. Did not think about that ( BTW there has not been any cooling fluid in the engine. That would be the last step before trying to start. Still think about "waterless"). I had the generator off recently and that turned fine. And yes, good to put some rags around.
About the aux systems: I had all the relevant fuses out, but if you only put the 12v directly over the cranking motor and only when you use the starter anyway on the 6 volt. I am sort of sure it is save for other systems. Or am I wrong?
Fijne dag
Duco
 
Just occurred to me, have the starter cables been replaced? Often they are replaced with smaller gauge wire than designed for 6 volt systems and it reduces the power that six volts can deliver.

Of course this won't be an issue when using a 12 volt battery.
 

Duco55

Active Member
OK, point taken. Will take care and only use an extra 6V.
The cables are 50mm2. So very large ( I think that is your 00 gauge). Also the connection needs to be real tight
I tried to upload a smal mp4 with the engine (trying to) turn over. With plugs in etc, and only 6,1 Volt. But it is not accepted. It seems to be to large. ( it is 6.4 mb) I need to find a tool to make it smaller. What is accepted? 5MB?
I inspected the old battery and it loads up to 6,3 which seems ok, but it immediately drops to 6.1. So I think part of the problem is the battery itself.
I use it now every time the battery is reloaded and do a few bursts so that there is at least some movement. Until I have a new battery or can find a 6 volt start help unit with over 1000amp cca. Brushes in the cranking unit seem to be ok.
groet
Duco
 

322bnh

Active Member
If this is a standard transmission car, just tow it around the block with the plugs out to loosen it up. Watch the oil pressure gauge.
 

Duco55

Active Member
Yes, Could do that, but than I have to fix the leaking wheel cylinder first. Will need brakes. Also, My area is not very suited to do that.
Update: bought a professional big battery loader as a first step. The battery was loaded with the small loader, but the new one immediately started. I was happy but it is now 36 hours later and still not ready. And of course the booklet does not give an answer as to why. Is the battery gone to battery heaven of is the new loader rubbish? Probably step 2 is also needed ( new battery).
Will give cranking another go today.
Have a nice weekend and stay healthy.
Duco
 

Duco55

Active Member
Update: bought a stronger battery in the end ( 140AH, 900cca). Much improvement. But also made a 2 piece manual cranking rod with a pretty large diameter. Used it a bit and now the engine moves better. Did not start the engine as yet, as I am working on other things.
Met groeten
Duco
 
Top