Anything new from the straight 8 hot rodders?

[39CENT]

Just a note to thank the contributors here for all the information, and to let them know that there are lurkers and newbies out here soaking it all up.

My project is a sort of hot rod, but likely completely different than everyones here. I am developing a sort of fantasy British 'gentleman's express" that might have been built in the mid thirties over there. Think old Aston Martin or Bentley with cycle fenders and huge Lucas P-100's, 20" wire wheels and so on. If you have ever read any of the books "The Saint" (the James bond of the 30's) my inspiration is the Hirondel, his car.

The basis is a 1935 Alvis ladder frame, with big aluminum dif, huge wire wheels and big alloy drum (mechanical) brakes... and I thought a Buick Straight Eight would be the right "period" fit, and it is. I was looking for a 320 of course, but found a good 263, and in retrospect, looking at the comments here, I am glad I did. I will be reviewing all this info when the time comes to begin addressing the engine, but for right now I am trying to get all the motors mounts right and, big immediate problem, fitting a transmission to it.

I chose a Chevy SM 420 truck transmission from the early 60's because I wanted the granny gear, and, a truck transmission is about right for a car of this era, in fact, a substantial upgrade, because SM stands for synchromesh. (I doubt I will ever go much over 60 in the thing as it is more of an art project than a performance project.). I don't know if anyone has dealt with this, but, the top two bolt holes look like they will fit...the spine is the right length and number of splines but I will have to mess with the throwout bearing a little...I'm thinking I might be able to figure out how to bore out the threading on the two bottom holes that don't fit (bell housing), and drill and tap some receiving holes into the transmission face..or, maybe figure out how to adapt and use a Chevy bell housing. Anyway, if any one has faced this issue would like to hear about it.

When I look at this engine I just can't help but thinking "what if". I mean we are lucky to have it at all with it's overhead valves, but I keep thinking, DAMN, if it just had a cross flow head; if it just had an over head cam; if it just had a TWIN overhead cam! If only the pistons weren't siamesed etc...And thin I think, wow..what if some enterprising mechanical engineer got together with a master machinist and figured out a way to solve this problem, it could be a minor industry because there are plenty of blocks left! The BMC "A" engine had this happen (like you would find in a Morris Minor, Spridget, Mini etc)...Somebody makes and sells a twin cam head for this little four banger...I think they cost about 6 grand. Think what a 263 would look like with a beautiful, alloy, period looking twin cam head and 4 SU's or 8 Amal carbs (!) coming out one side!!!? With enough acorn nuts and jewelry, it would look better than a 1939 Delage Grand Prix racer!

Well, just day dreaming, but, if anybody wants to make one, sign me up! In the meantime we could just enthuse about it. Any ideas how the cam gears would be driven?
Bill

Dreamin, is the start of many good projects. A Buick straight 8 is a good engine, and you can still get parts for em would be a good start. I would just stuff the engine into that chassis and get things runnin, then work on the engine mods later.
Well, theres a guy in this site. Jyrki, has done some good stuff to a 320 straight 8, and also driveline work. His site has the complete build and I think it can give you some good idees'. the big 8 has a lot of similarites to the smaller ones, especially the drive train.check it out. Also lot more info here in teambuick.

http://www.roadmachine.fi/Buick/august2001.html

[PolarRoller]

Well, it's fun to think of ways to convert it to a twin cam, although I don't have the expertise to even really consider it, ..Yeah, it would be heavy, but, all gussied up with enough acron nuts and other jewelry, you could make it look like a freeking 1939 Delage Grand Prix engine, or a Bugatti, or a Miller.

To begin with this is primarily an "information" problem. My daydreams are pretty much 'aesthetic', and my dreams are how neat it ould look and sound...but if you are a real live automotive mechanical engineer with not much to do, (just laid off in Detroit for example), seems to me you could sit down and design this thing and create the DFX files in your new spare time, with very little actual dollar investment necessary. Not sure if you would need a casting or if the basic head could be CNC'd. Since you are doing the whole top end over you can now make a proper cross flow head.

Next step would to be to build a prototype and run it. This would cost a little money, but not much more than a lot of people spend on hobbies, and should not be difficult to raise if you are broke.

Seems to me then you are nearly ready to market. You have to round up say 100 good Buick straight eight blocks and prepare them with standard performance internals and have them assembled in one of these places that rebuilds all kinds of engines like you see on eBay.... add the head and put these short blocks up for sale at about 25,000 each...A gross of 2.5 Million...not Microsoft certainly, but enough for our engineer to live on for five or ten years? Plus, maybe there is a second run if the engines gain a good reputation?

Thing is, back in the day, this happened all the time in shops that were far less fancy than a lot of hobby shops today..and no computers or CNC machines either..think of Harry Miller of course, but how about all the Frontenac type heads for Fords? Hell, the Wright brothers guy built their engine from scratch and I don't think he even had electricity!

When I see things like this starting to happen in the American economy I will know we are on the way back up. As long as people are waiting around for a "job", foggedaboutit....
S

[Buick Guy]

While we're dreamin' let's cast a four bolt aluminum block and get some billet cranks made. You're right, there are places out there that are trying to keep the doors open that might be willing to take on a project like that. And then I woke up. Just love being retired, it lets me have time to dream and do "Bud" engineering.

[PolarRoller]

Wow...we are really dreamin' now...If we are going to do that, why not let's start from scratch and built an absolutely beautiful, high tech obsolete engine!!!Check out some of the Harry Miller marine engines for instance :~)
S

[gnoub]

PolarRoller:

I took your suggestion and am looking over the Miller engines. Beautiful stuff. It's too bad we don't build engines these days with the obvious pride of craftsmanship and aesthetic qualities. Look at some of the old Dusenberg's and the V16 Cad's. Just beautiful.

These people do some interesting stuff although it looks to be mainly on flatheads and Hudson engines:

http://www.uncommonengineering.com/

Gary

[Buick Guy]

I contacted them, and they are willing to look at the project. It would cost about 10 Grand for a pilot project, and per head cost would have to be worked out from there. KEEP DREAMIN'. That's what makes this life fun. At some point, somebody will say: "Hey I've got the money, and the time. Let's get 'er done". 'Til then, let's keep going with what we can scrounge up. Doug

[Buick Guy]

Polar Roller,
Check out www.transmissionadapters.com . That will get you to a Chevy pattern. and from there, you can get to a pattern to use the truck trans. They may even be able to put the truck pattern on the adapter. I'm sure that each one is made to order anyway. I have a friend in MPLS. that knows the Guy and he's a little gruff, but pretty nice after you get to know him. He's got the capability to do what you want. Won't hurt to ask.
Doug

[PolarRoller]

Interesting web site for sure...It's interesting that Miller and Bugatti, father and son, the most celebrated automotive engineers of all time were really more artists than engineers. Miller lavished, or had lavished all sorts of detail and finish on his engines which I suppose would be considered quaint today, but which I find missing in modern engines. He couldn't allow an adjustible wrench in his shop! He started out as a casting apprentice at about age 18. Really it is casting that is holding back our adventures in making old timey looking engines...it seems to be the forgotten automotive art. Sure you can hog out a piece of billet with a CNC machine...but, it never looks as good as a casting.

If you want to have some fun in this regard, replace that tin can of a valve cover on your Buick with a fabricated aluminium one you make and "engine turn" the surfaces...in the back of my ind I am thinking of making such a cover that on the outside "appears" to be a twin cam :~) Art rules...You can also get real "retro", or even "euro" by replacing all that stamped out stuff like oil filter can etc...
S

[PolarRoller]

So I wonder what a "pilot project" would get you? Just drawings or would they make you a prototype? And, I wonder who owns the information at the end of the pilot? If you could figure out a way to get back your investment with a %age on subsequent sales, the ten grand might not be so hard to deal with. I thought it would be more to be honest...

Thanks fort the tranny info..I'll go have a look
S

[David Juricic]

I am presently building a 1940's hot rod. It is a 1939 Pontiac 4 door Silver Streak that I am installing a Buick 320 Cu in engine in. As many of you know, the 320 engine is very long. It is about 8-1/2 inches longer than the Pontiac 241 straight 8. I got the 320 to fit into the Pontiac engine bay without cutting the firewall or grille. I am using a 1989 Jeep Cherokee radiator and it slips just behind the grill like it belongs there. It should be a different monster when I am finished. It will also have a Three On The Tree just for giggles.