Nailhead Lifter Noise

**Tom Barnes** · 07-01-2012, 10:58 PM

Wow! 7 years. That's quite a thread. So, the Riv's doing OK. How's your shoulder and your wife's knee? Doing well I hope. Since you started this, I've replaced both knees, one shoulder, one big toe and done very little on my Buicks, and I've got a bunch of 'em. I was a Buick mechanic and service manager when these cars were new (then became the dealer). I can tell you I've delt with this problem a lot. You've been given some really good advice. But, have you replaced the timing set yet? Those things only lasted about 30 or 35,000 miles back then and when they let loose, it gets really expensive. Another thing I wondered about is that many folks mentioned replacing the lifters, but no one said anything about replacing the camshaft. At high mileage when the lifters get concave, new lifters usually don't last long on the old cam and then you have to do it all again. And, another thing, that valve stem height is VERY important. When it's wrong, the whole rocker arm geometry changes. I think it was Doc that said don't put in hardened seats. That's absolutley right. For one thing, you don't need them and another, and maybe more important, is there isn't much material under them and it can cause heating (or cooling) problems. I'll bet when you change the timing gear and chain it will seem like a whole new car. Good luck with your project. Be careful of the timing marks on the gears, they can be confusing. After reading seven years of posts, I feel like I know all you guys.

**DocModisett** · 07-02-2012, 04:18 AM

And,,, I might add,,, a few years back the oil companies took the zinc out of the engine oil.... and ALL ENGINES WITH FLAT TAPPET CAM SYSTEMS MUST HAVE IT FOR THE CAM TO SURVIVE..... be double sure you put zddp additive in the oil with each and every oil change... if you dont you will lose the cam.... dont even start the engine up without it....

**Tom Barnes** · 07-02-2012, 10:09 AM

Hi Doc. This oil thing has been a topic for quite a while. And has had a lot of old car guys worried, me included. A few months ago I read an article all about the current oils and the problems they can cause for us. I think the article was in Skinned Knuckles but I'm not sure. Anyway they explained how to decifer the code that is on all oil containers. They also said that Shell Rotella still had zink and a lot of guys were using it. Well, it happens that for years I've been using Rotella in my big trucks, getting good longevity on them. So, I put Rotella in all my old cars because they're all flat tappet engines. So far, no problems. If anyone's interested, I could take some time and try to find that article. By the way Doc, Somewhere I saw you and your manifold modification. Wow! 2 tenths of a second, everyone should do it. That's pretty cheap horsepower.

**DocModisett** · 07-02-2012, 10:24 AM

Thanks , Zink,,,for the compliment.... i thought of that mod one night at about 2 am.... had woke up and was just laying there thinking about there not being any performance single carb manifolds made for a nailhead Buick engine.... and it came to me to open the carb flange up front to back....like all the ebrock manifolds, ect.... so next day, I pulled the intake off my 64 riv and did it,,, did not change anything else at all.... and i was amazed at the increase in power all through the range.... I wondered why Buick did not do that.....

**BornBuick** · 07-06-2012, 09:58 PM

Gosh, I hope you are not referring to Shell Rotella Synthetic as a cure for the Zinc/Phosphate depletion in newly formulated oils or for that matter using any synthetic oil in a flat tapped, high impact engine.

Synthetic oils by their chemical backbone do not have the ability to form complete bonds with these two additives. The P-Chem regarding synthetic oils is they have the ability to be fluid and have a high lubricative coefficient at high or extreme low temperatures. However with that said, please never confuse synthetic oils for something they are not. Namely a carrier for protection against high impact abrasion and scuffing which is what Zinc and Phosphate additive do, but they need to be able to bond a carrier molecule in order to do that.

Chemistry was my world for years, so I thought I'd add a little something to this discussion. Oh, diesel oils won't cut it either they have a too high amount of ash content in their formulation and that's bad for the high impact engines as well unless you want to change your oil every 1000 miles or so.

**Tom Barnes** · 07-06-2012, 11:48 PM

Hi Buick born. Actually, I didn't mean the synthetic, I've been using the 15-40. I started using it in diesel trucks about 15 years ago because I was told to. The guy that recommended it had been a trucker for years and thought it was the best. So, I used it. I got real long life out of the engines that I used it in so I continued to use it. Then several months ago, the zink problem was disscused in one of the old car magazines I get. I was surprised to see the Rotella as an answer to the problem. The article went into how to read the lables on the containers to know what's in them. So, after the good experience I had had with diesel engines, I started using it in my old cars. So far there's not been a problem. I'm glad to learn though about the synthetic, I'll avoid it. But, I have a '07 Harley and the dealer recommended synthetic after the first oil change. So, I've been running their oil ever since. I think it has roller tappets, maybe that's why it's OK. It's really confusing to us guys that don't know the real details about this stuff. So, are you saying that we shouldn't run the synthetic oils in flat tappet engines? Or is it just a matter of it not mixing with some of the additives? Thanks for the info.

**BornBuick** · 07-07-2012, 08:48 AM

It's comforting in an unusual way to hear that it is not synthetic you have convinced yourself to use unlike so many others that still insist pouring the latest in the oldest because the newest is always best or some such mantra like that.

Yes I am saying again that:

DO Not Use Synthetic Oils In Flat Tappet Engines.

Simply put, synthetics do not have the chemical backbone which enables them to be able to carry these "particular additives" of which we speak, namely (ZDDP) and of which just so happen to be a life line for our "particular" flat tappet engines, in a consistent and productive fashion without eventual premature phase fallout and separation. You can however use oils that have high "Ash" content (diesel oils - With No Sulfur) but you need to change oils twice as frequently or you get gummy bears.

So what does that mean? By just pouring a DZZP additive into an oil that does not have the binding carrier capabilities inherent in it's chemical backbone makeup to do just that, is like pouring oil into a beaker filled with water. You will get phase separation. Will it protect your impact surface areas in this scenario? Well as long as the DZZP additive can make contact with the impact surface. Then yes. But if it is in a separated phase limbo then probably not so effective.

Yes, that narrows down the field of choice of likely "Oil To Use" suspects by a large margin indeed. My guess would be to use only DINO OILS, (non synthetic) with low ash in a simple single grade weight, IF, your operating conditions are within a consistent and narrow band. A multi grade would be your choice only if you need to be operating in a very Wide range of conditions. At any rate, this will give the ZDDP something to hang onto as it takes the ride through your engine and becomes one with the Dino Oil. That way, your chances of embossing and bathing the Impact Surfaces is much greater and consistent overall.

**rcfryer** · 08-12-2012, 07:50 AM

Flushing the engine usually works if there is no mechanical issue. One of the easiest ways I have found to flush an engine is to replace one quart of oil with a quart of transmission fluid. The tranny fluid will dissolve the lacquer buildup and will refresh the seals at the same time. Just run the car with the tranny fluid in the oil. After a few hundred miles the engine will run much better and the oil consumption will decrease dramatically. I have done this with many cars and it always works very well.

Originally Posted by conroy

OK, I am very mechanical but not a car mechanic. I learn by doing. I have a '64 Riviera with a 425. I have lifter noise that shows up after I have driven several miles on the highway, shut it down, then restart. It is very pronounced until I drive very moderately and it gradually works itself out. I have been told that the oil galleries are plugged up and that I can clean them out myself. Since I have never had a valve cover off, can someone describe to me what I am looking for and how I go about this? Or you can describe to me why my friend doesn't know what he is talking about, and what I big mistake this would be for me to do this myself. I have the chassis service manual, but that doesn't tell me the whole story. I have seen some improvement after using Rislone for a year. I really do have a mechanical head on my shoulders and have spent 40 years working on almost everything else besides a car motor. I plan to have this motor professionally rebuilt, but that is not in my budget for a year or two. Please advise.

**BornBuick** · 08-13-2012, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by rcfryer

Flushing the engine usually works if there is no mechanical issue. One of the easiest ways I have found to flush an engine is to replace one quart of oil with a quart of transmission fluid. The tranny fluid will dissolve the lacquer buildup and will refresh the seals at the same time. Just run the car with the tranny fluid in the oil. After a few hundred miles the engine will run much better and the oil consumption will decrease dramatically. I have done this with many cars and it always works very well.

Pure transmission fluid will eventually coke when heated. A much superior approach would be to use Rislone Treatment. Like Marvin Mystery Oil in some ways, it too will dissolve the gum/lacquer throughout and re-season gaskets without coking and leaving embedded residue on the metal surfaces like a true fluid will do as a fluid unlike an oil is designed to transfer heat quickly but is poor at absorbing constant contact heat. Look at how fast a fluid will burn compared to an oil base alternative in any given situation.