After-market Fuel-Injection for Buicks - Opinions?

[elagache]

Thanks Team Buick members for all your interesting replies,

Certainly a lot to think about here.

I called TA Performance. They did not offer any support for the 6 mpg increase claim.

I just got off the phone with them as well. All I ever imagined is that they had some reports from their customers, but as seems true from the Team Buick community, there just haven't been that many folks buying the system. According to the technician I spoke with (Jim), they have never sold any 350 EFI systems. So whatever anecdotal evidence came from folks using 455s. Given the skepticism here, sounds like TA-Performance should remove the mileage reports from their catalog.

Jim told me that TA-Performance sends their manifolds out to Imagine Injection (http://www.imagineinjection.com/), to have their EFI systems installed.

However for the sake of this discussion, I have to think that FI is not a worthwhile investment and leave it at that (but maybe you want to install it for other reasons). I'm happy to discuss anything about FI.

Well Bob you are one of the very few folks who actually have installed it, so your opinion carries a lot of weight! I'm indeed trying to weigh all my options, so its back to the drawing board for me at least for the moment.

Don't overlook the fact that a factory EFI system can be awapped to your 300. Like one from a Rover, there are tons of them sitting in junkyards. Or one from a TBI 350 found in just about everything. Thats the cheapest way into EFI. There are systems like Megasquirt that make controlling everything easy.

Perhaps for someone who can do most of the work himself that would be an option, but I'm not a gearhead so I don't think I'll be able to pull off this stunt.

I prefer EFI, thats just how I roll. My 63 Lesabre is getting a Vortec 8100. Why? Because it's different, big and will have perfect driveability.

*Sigh*, that's where I was when I first came to this forum! There is no doubt that if I want to have modern benefits like easy starting, more powerpower and high fuel-economy - I could swap in a modern Chevy drivetrain into my 65 Buick. Somehow, I was hoping to tread a fine line between authenticity and driveability. I'm sure not seeing any obviously appealing compromise at the moment.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Time for me to go back and do some more research and thinking.

Cheers, Edouard

[pmuller9]

Don't give up on Buick powertrain!!! Not to sound repetative but the 455 is a real good option.
It is only 1 inch wider than a SB chevy. (Someone correct me if this is wrong).
TA performance said their high volume water pump will take care of the extra heat.
There are more aftermarket parts for the 455 than any other Buick V8.
The stock engine only needs a cam change to make it more economical. Crower Mileage cam 52237.
The real player for economy is the transmission. You need an automatic with a lock-up converter and an overdrive. A beefed-up aftermarket 200R4 will do the job. It uses less energy to run than the 700R4.
They are not cheap and for a little more money you can get a great 5 or 6 speed manual transmission with overdrive which would be even more efficient.
You can start out with a good spread bore carb as a benchmark and do the EFI later as your budget permits
Don't scare us
Paul

[bobc455]

Here's my thoughts on fuel pumps.

For most retrofit applications, companies will provide an external pump which theoretically meets the flow specifications for the job. However, I've burned out DOZENS of these trying to get a good setup.

The problem is that these small electric pumps run very hot, and are cooled by the fuel flowing through them. Therefore these must flow FULL FLOW all the time (the reason you need a bypass regulator with a return line to the tank). If you have a 75 GPH pump, it must always pump 75 GPH or it will overheat.

If these suck air, even for just a few seconds, you're going to kill the pump. Even if it doesn't seize up, its capacity will be diminished and you'll run lean at WOT (you'll see this on a WB O2 reading). Not to mention it will always be noisy the rest of the time.

Therefore, if you run this sort of pump, you should always have a minimum of 1/4 tank, so that you don't suck air when going around a corner or something.

Ideally, you should get a new gas tank which is designed for EFI with an internal pump. I know that Spectra makes a few EFI tanks for retrofit applications, or you can get one from Rock Valley (http://www.rockvalleyantiqueautopart..._tanks_all.pdf) either custom-made or based on a design they already have. This is one of those "extra" expenses I mention above which is not included in the price of the EFI package, and is highly recommended. Not only is an EFI tank set up to accept an internal pump (which helps keep the pump cool) but it also has better internal baffling to help prevent sucking air (but you should still try to avoid running out of gas).

The problem with the Spectra tanks is that you don't get a choice of fuel pumps, and the one supplied is barely sufficient for a stock. If you need more fuel, you have to buy another pump (or preferably a dual-pump arrangement). I think Rock Valley is more flexible in their choice of fuel pumps, and frankly their quality is better too (albeit more expensive).

In my car, I have two pumps for the EFI system. Since one pump has always been marginal (or insufficient), I have one pump that runs constantly and one that kicks on at WOT (with a throttle switch & a relay). I had to install a sump in my tank in order to get a feed line for the 2nd pump. (I also have a third pump for the nitrous system but that's a story for a different day.)

I run without any inlet filter to the pump. I have a filter on the outlet side to prevent engine damage, but an inlet filter acts as a restriction and can lead to a burnt-out pump much faster. These pumps are made to push fuel, but can't suck fuel. (Another reason why an in-tank pump is preferred!) It is difficult on some cars to locate the pump low enough on the vehicle to help take full advantage of the siphon effect - if the pump is too high above the level of the bottom of the tank, it will burn out.

If you get a tank with an internal pump, I think you can get a dual-pump arrangement which should meet just about any HP requirement.

Hope that helps!

-Bob C.

[bobc455]

There is no doubt that if I want to have modern benefits like easy starting, more powerpower and high fuel-economy

If you are going to use your Buick as your primary transportation, and also a car that will be cool to bring to the occasional show, then you might want to put the payback calculation aside and go ahead. The drivability is fantastic.

And if you aren't going for any type of racing, maybe something like the Accel system (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACC-77135D/) is something to consider, and I think there is a Holley Commander equivalent. I don't think the advantages of port FI outweigh TBI by enough to justify it. However you'll need a 4150 (Holley) flange, and I suspect you have a q-jet flange on your current 300.

If you do retrofit FI, one more way to keep it simple is to NOT use the FI system to tune timing. I feel that I can time an engine with a distributor just fine - use the computer only to control the fuel.

If you want to talk about it, I'd be happy to spend some time on the phone with you. Let me know.

-Bob C.

[elagache]

Thanks Paul, Bob, and everyone for your thoughts on this!

Hey, I hooked, it would take a very desperate situation to make me give up on a Buick drivetrain.

Don't give up on Buick powertrain!!! Not to sound repetative but the 455 is a real good option.
It is only 1 inch wider than a SB chevy. (Someone correct me if this is wrong).
TA performance said their high volume water pump will take care of the extra heat.
There are more aftermarket parts for the 455 than any other Buick V8.
The stock engine only needs a cam change to make it more economical. Crower Mileage cam 52237.

Thanks Paul for all these suggestions, and in particular, components that might avoid serious engine trouble! If money was no object: why wouldn't I "super-size" my engine! What has always made be look back at the 350 is that is would less costly up front, at least somewhat easier to install, and would be nicer on the gas mileage. However, I only know of 3 surviving 1965 Buick Deluxe Special wagons - the other two have 455s in them. Clearly there is a trend here!

The real player for economy is the transmission. You need an automatic with a lock-up converter and an overdrive. A beefed-up aftermarket 200R4 will do the job. It uses less energy to run than the 700R4.

I had come across this idea and had basically decided to make this switch. However, that didn't resolve the engine problem by itself. Even the 300 cid V-8 in the car now will bolt up to the 200R4. I wish I had some realistic idea of how much of a difference this transmission would make - there are claims out there of a 30% improvement in gas mileage, but that sounds like hype if anything ever did!

You can start out with a good spread bore carb as a benchmark and do the EFI later as your budget permits

I may need to do exactly that. I haven't started looking at totals yet, but . . . its already looking a little scary!

Bob thanks very much for the particular details about the tank fuel pump. Have I been missing this feature of the after-market kits? Is this simply one of the components and they say very little about it? *Gulp*!

If you are going to use your Buick as your primary transportation, and also a car that will be cool to bring to the occasional show, then you might want to put the payback calculation aside and go ahead. The drivability is fantastic.

. . . . . .

If you want to talk about it, I'd be happy to spend some time on the phone with you. Let me know.

Yes, I think I might appreciate a little one-on-one phone discussion about this - thanks very much for the offer! Before I waste your time though, I'd better do a little more homework and talk with the fellows who are going have to do the "heavy-lifting" for this installation.

Thank you very much for all the help! If it wasn't obvious, I really came to this forum not understanding enough about what was going under the hood of Classic Buicks. Thanks you everyone who has contributed to answering my questions, my trusty wagon has a much better change of getting a drivetrain the car really deserves.

Now time to digest some of these ideas!!

Thanks again, Edouard

[pmuller9]

If money was no object: why wouldn't I "super-size" my engine! What has always made be look back at the 350 is that is would less costly up front, at least somewhat easier to install, and would be nicer on the gas mileage. However, I only know of 3 surviving 1965 Buick Deluxe Special wagons - the other two have 455s in them. Clearly there is a trend here!

My point of a 455 having more available parts is that it actually may be cheaper than a 350 to set up. It is not much bigger than a 350 so it should be just as easy to install. The 455 can be detuned for economy and still have more torque than the 350 and get as good if not better gas mileage.

I wish I had some realistic idea of how much of a difference this transmission would make - there are claims out there of a 30% improvement in gas mileage, but that sounds like hype if anything ever did!

The overdrive and lockout converter will reduce rpm around 30% but will not necessarily give a 30% improvement in gas mileage. You are right about it being hype. However the lock-up converter does conserve energy that would have been wasted as heat during highway cruising and every additional way of not wasting energy will add up. I would definitely make this addition as part of the project. Also larger engines definitely take advantage of lower highway rpm. 2000 rpm or less at 70mph is a nice way to travel

Paul

[elagache]

Dear Paul (and everyone),

My point of a 455 having more available parts is that it actually may be cheaper than a 350 to set up. It is not much bigger than a 350 so it should be just as easy to install. The 455 can be detuned for economy and still have more torque than the 350 and get as good if not better gas mileage.

Definitely feeling a little Mea culpa at this point. Looking at your earlier postings you lay out a perfectly reasonable solution for using my existing 300 cid engine: http://www.teambuick.com/forums/show...93&postcount=3. Your point about 455 makes a lot of sense if I want to put the car back into tow duty. Either way, I think I'm cured of interest in the 350! So now I have to decide between the 300 and 455.

The overdrive and lockout converter will reduce rpm around 30% but will not necessarily give a 30% improvement in gas mileage. You are right about it being hype. However the lock-up converter does conserve energy that would have been wasted as heat during highway cruising and every additional way of not wasting energy will add up. I would definitely make this addition as part of the project. Also larger engines definitely take advantage of lower highway rpm. 2000 rpm or less at 70mph is a nice way to travel

I've wished this car had a 4-speed automatic for decades, so this isn't a hard sell either. From what I've read, the swap of the TH350 for the 200R4 is about as straightforward as such a swap could possibility be. So this I'm committed to.

Thanks for sharing your expertise on these sorts of conversions! I'm still trying to digest Bob's comments about fuel pumps, but I'm definitely feeling closer to a viable solution!

Cheers, Edouard

[pmuller9]

Bob C

Thank You for your informative reply concerning fuel pumps for EFI. I prefer not having to reinvent the wheel. This definitely will help me plan the fuel system.
Now I understand that having the pump in the fuel tank keeps the pump cool and minimizes the distance for fuel draw to its inlet.
Using multiple pumps and staging them to meet the fuel demand as it increases is a great idea.

While reading your reply it reminded me of a street/strip car I work with. It has a carbureted 598, 1000 hp on 92 octane, with a 400 shot (1400 hp total). The fuel pump has a 2 stage controller so it operates at partial speed then bypasses to full speed when the nitrous system is activated.

My question is: Suppose the 65 Impala owner decides to run a 600 hp twin screw supercharged engine, what is your opinion on using a large, single, in tank pump with a rpm based fuel pump speed controller? http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/accessories-electronics/16306-billet-fuel-pump-speed-controller/

Paul

[bobc455]

Bob C

[snip]

My question is: Suppose the 65 Impala owner decides to run a 600 hp twin screw supercharged engine, what is your opinion on using a large, single, in tank pump with a rpm based fuel pump speed controller? http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/accessories-electronics/16306-billet-fuel-pump-speed-controller/

Paul

From everything I know, those work well. The only downside is that they are kinda pricey- I think they are over $400. You could buy a fuel pump and keep two spares for that price! There's nothing wrong with running the fuel pump at 100% all the time, unless your return line is undersized and the pressure gets too high at the manifold.

-Bob C.

[elagache]

Dear Team Buick members,

Thanks to all the very helpful feedback from you'all, I'm settling into the idea of swapping a 455 into my 65 Buick Special wagon. That pushes me in a different direction as far a fuel-injection is concerned. Given that the costs of the swap will be - significant, I certainly would prefer to take on this project in stages. Still, I've learned a lot from this thread so I wanted to pick everyone's brains one more time.

Question-1: Can anyone think of an important reason why I should bite the bullet and go EFI at the same time as the engine swap?

Question-2: The new engine will need a fuel system. Is it worth considering a carburetor-body fuel injection system right now instead of putting on a carburetor. It means the fuel tank misery, but the goal is simply a pleasant driving street car and a good carburetor is going to cost me a few hundred. Do the gurus on the forum have a suggestion for this type of EFI?

Question-3: Since the 455 has a few aluminum manifolds available, one can have a tuned-port fuel-injection system put together. If I were to go hog wild and try to do this today, which systems would folks recommend right now?

I don't want to waste anybody's time, but I found this discussion really helpful. So now that I'm thinking 455, I would appreciate having the advice that folks have given me also "supersized" for this particular engine combination. I'll then squirrel it away for the time when I can take on phase-II of this drivetrain upgrade caper.

Thanks again to everyone - sure has made my "mission impossible" at least plausible!

Cheers, Edouard

P.S. I'm thinking of teaming up the engine with an after-market hardened 200-4R transmission if that has any effect on the EFI system.