After-market Fuel-Injection for Buicks - Opinions?

[elagache]

Dear Team-Buick Members,

Help! I've been browsing through my TA-Performance catalog again!

Seriously, one lead provided by a member of the "Team Buick Brotherhood" was to look into Fuel-Injection as a well to boost the power of the 300 cid V-8 in my 65 Special. This lead me to investigate the After-market Electronic Fuel-Injection kits that can be found for a wide-variety of classic Buick engines (yes, even the 300.)

These units are vary from expensive to very-expensive and installation varies from "it t'aint easy" to "if you have to ask how - you'll never make it". Still, the technology seems very interesting and if you have experience with a modern car, you know it does wonders for things like gas mileage.

Intrigued, I decided to crunch a few numbers based on the TA-Performance intake manifold and EFI package: http://www.taperformance.com/products.asp?cat=369. It seems to me that at least the TA-Performance version would pay for itself in terms of fuel cost savings in a few years (depending on the engine, number of miles driven a year, and so on.)

Since I thought it might be useful to the "brotherhood," I created a blog entry with the details of my calculations and attached to that two Excel spreadsheets so that you'all can slice and dice the numbers for yourself http://www.teambuick.com/forums/blog.php?b=135.

All this theory is fine and good . . . but it don't get anything actually under the hood. So I cannot help but ask the Team Buick Brotherhood: what are people's experiences with After-market Electronic Fuel Injection? Which models have folks installed and what are their experiences? How difficult was the installation? How does the car behave once EFI is installed? Can you truly get a substantial benefit of modern technology in our beloved classic Buick engines?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks for any and all pearls of wisdom!

Cheers, Edouard

[WildKitty]

I don't see any wisdom in spending $3750+ to be able to say "it's fuel injected"

the 300 is 9:1 compression, burns 87octane pump gas.

maybe increase the compression to 10:1, burn premium (89octane)
and add HEI & tuned headers.

I think the improvement would be the same @ a fraction of the cost.

I think my breaking run across the country will be the most - per year;
that I'll ever put on either 64, and that wont even be 8,000 miles.

I'm keeping the 300 to maintain the efficiency, the rest of the build is for looks and to appeal to the classsic taste.

I have a great running 455 sitting onna another trailer - that WAS going to go in the LeSabre - - until gas got to $3+gal. it will still go INTO the LeSabre, but in the form of $$ for whatever I sell it for.

[pmuller9]

This was my thinking when I made suggestions for investigation.
It appeared as though you were having troubles with carburetors.
Your goal was better fuel efficiency and more power.
Usually the smaller engine with the aid of a power adder can accomplish both and it seemed like you wanted to keep the original engine anyway.

I suggested The Retrotek Powerjection System as a replacement for the carburetor using the original manifold. Cost is $1500. Quote"The system is self-learning which means you can start the car up after installation, drive it around for 20 or 30 minutes and it dials itself in to the perfect tune. It continues to tune as it adapts to your driving style and conditions." The system will accommodate up to 20 lbs of boost so you can add a turbo or a centrifugal supercharger later as a blow through system.

Port injection is better but requires a manifold that is set up for injectors or an aluminum intake that can be modified. I don’t see anything available for the iron head 300.

The other factor is the head cam combination. A head with high velocity ports and a short duration high lift cam to match will yield a wide, low end power band. This should help with fuel economy. Then the turbo or supercharger can add the extra high end power when needed. Talk to Gessler Head Porting.

So if 200+ horsepower is enough then go Naturally Aspirated with the original 10.25:1 compression ratio.
If 300+ horsepower then 9:1 compression ratio with a turbo or supercharger.
You need to decide before choosing pistons for the rebuild.

As for EFI units for port injection, I’ve used and recommend the Accel DFI for this application
For the Buick 300 it would be the Accel DFI Thruster 77010W (around $1500) with the Accel Dual Sync distributor 77301 ($450). You will still need a manifold set up for injectors.

[elagache]

Dear WildKitty and pmuller9,

Thanks for replying. I'm still doing more "shopping around" for ideas than anything else. I just came back from the body shop and the car isn't going to be available for engine work for weeks. So I can afford to do some "wishful thinking".

I don't see any wisdom in spending $3750+ to be able to say "it's fuel injected"

Hey no debate there! If it doesn't actually provide some real benefit - forget it! What got me thinking about this is comparing the gas mileage of a modern car with my venerable wagon. We have a 2000 Buick Century that gets 20 mpg. At least for me, it is a real drag every time I have to fill up the car. The result is unavoidable: the car ends sitting more in the garage as a private museum piece instead of being the family friend it once was. That just isn't the fate I want for the car.

I'm keeping the 300 to maintain the efficiency, the rest of the build is for looks and to appeal to the classsic taste.

You see, my experiences with our wagon are very different than your experiences with your Le Sabre. The car didn't just "pop into our lives" in recent times. We struggled to keep this car practical throughout its life. Along the way, we changed the car. Those changes are now part of the car's family history.

If I wanted to really bring the car back to its "factory condition," I would need to go back to the ST-300 transmission. Even if I did that, I couldn't make the car interesting to the collector. At the same time, it would be "going against" the decision that my Dad made in 1979 when he had the transmission swapped for a TH-350. To me, that something of violating his memory. As the family grew and evolved, so the car changed. I feel I owe more to that history than the history of Buicks in general. Any fan of Buick can take care of the general history, but I'm the only one who can look out for our family history. I hope you can understand that kind of unusual personal quandary.

This was my thinking when I made suggestions for investigation.
It appeared as though you were having troubles with carburetors.
Your goal was better fuel efficiency and more power.
Usually the smaller engine with the aid of a power adder can accomplish both and it seemed like you wanted to keep the original engine anyway.

Actually, the reason for using the TA-Performance combo in my analysis was simply: they quoted some gas mileage improvements! My curiosity was truly: "Could this sort of enhancement ever make sense from an economic perspective?" There are a few magazine articles out there on after-market electronic fuel injection systems and the message is clear: if you want a more pleasant "daily-driver" car, you might think about it. Otherwise there is nothing to gain. However, as it turns out - my goal is precisely a more pleasant daily-driver, so I'm thinking about it!

I suggested The Retrotek Powerjection System as a replacement for the carburetor using the original manifold. Cost is $1500. Quote"The system is self-learning which means you can start the car up after installation, drive it around for 20 or 30 minutes and it dials itself in to the perfect tune. It continues to tune as it adapts to your driving style and conditions." The system will accommodate up to 20 lbs of boost so you can add a turbo or a centrifugal supercharger later as a blow through system. .

I did check out the Retrotek system and indeed it seems interesting. It has interesting properties and indeed might make the 300 cid V-8 reach that horsepower range that I was hopeful to get to (~300hp). My main concern is that I'm simply not a gearhead. I don't have the tools, facilities and most of all expertise to do this sort of thing myself. If I need to hire a mechanic to do this sort of thing, I fear this is going to wipe out my bank account in a hurry. The TA-Performance 350 manifold and electronic ignition won't be cheap to install, but it doesn't appear to be hours and hours of fussing with the car that could cost me plenty. So, that's why the idea at least seemed worth considering. The 350 V-8 will install in my 65 wagon with minimal modifications and it is very much in the same spirit as upgrading the car from the ST-300 to the TH-350. It seems to me to be at least an "honorable" way to keep the spirit of the car as it has been in our household for 42 years.

However, like I said - I'm still thinking about all this! Certainly, I'm interesting in learning how hard making such changes really are. If the Retrotek system wasn't so difficult and fussy to install - I might easily be convinced to stick with the car's original 300 V-8!

Thanks for all the ideas! I'm learning a lot here!

Cheers, Edouard

[bobc455]

11 MPG to 17 MPG? I highly doubt it. If you have a decent carb, you'll only pick up about 2 MPG.

I also think you are underestimating the cost. You'll have to do things like get a block-off plate for your fuel pump, get braided fuel line, shipping price for your manifold, and so on. My installation was about $5.5k (exclusive of labor) in 2001. I don't know if the TA kit includes a distributor, but that will probably have to be changed too.

BTW, I have FI and I computed a LOT bigger payback period. I think it was a bit over 200k miles.

I've been running FI since 1993, and a port system since 2001. I also drive my Buick much more than most Buick owners (I've put about 240k miles on mine since I got it).

I use the Speed-pro system (now called the XFI), and I like it a lot. Don't be intimated by the technology, it's something you can grasp. The XFI has traction control, something I wish my box had...

I wouldn't bother with a sequential setup, bank-to-bank works great. Plus no need for a cam sensor.

-Bob C.

[elagache]

Hi Bobc455,

Thanks for sharing your experiences. The very reason I brought all of this up was to get a sanity check on what I found in the TA-Performance catalog.

11 MPG to 17 MPG? I highly doubt it. If you have a decent carb, you'll only pick up about 2 MPG.

Hey, I have to be honest, when I saw that claim in the TA-Performance catalog I was quite amazed too. You can look at the claims yourself, its also on their website: http://www.taperformance.com/proddet...?prod=TA_1235F. If this was some fly-by-night outfit, I would dismiss it, but I thought TA-Performance were good guys and devoted to the Buick community. So I can't help but think at least their customers reports those sorts of improvements. Can you think of some explanation for why they would report such values?

I also think you are underestimating the cost. You'll have to do things like get a block-off plate for your fuel pump, get braided fuel line, shipping price for your manifold, and so on. My installation was about $5.5k (exclusive of labor) in 2001. I don't know if the TA kit includes a distributor, but that will probably have to be changed too.

Yes you're right. The total cost will be much higher. However, I didn't want to include the cost of things that are likely to be changed anyway for other reasons. If you are going to improve the car's performance, you'd probably want to upgrade things like the distributor. If you would have done it even if you didn't go Fuel Injection, then I want that to be part of the "EFI penalty." Of course, if your setup required that change and you wouldn't have changed the distributor - yup, you'd better count that too as part of the costs to pay back.

BTW, I have FI and I computed a LOT bigger payback period. I think it was a bit over 200k miles.

That's the range I expected too. When I sat down to compute the cost I expected to easily dismiss the idea. Clearly two factors weigh heavily: the actual improvement in gas mileage and the cost of gas. If the actual gain is only 2 mpg - indeed it isn't worth it.

I've been running FI since 1993, and a port system since 2001. I also drive my Buick much more than most Buick owners (I've put about 240k miles on mine since I got it).

Thanks for sharing this with me. I'm glad not to be the only person who would like to keep my car in service as most folks would instead purchase a modern car for.

I use the Speed-pro system (now called the XFI), and I like it a lot. Don't be intimated by the technology, it's something you can grasp. The XFI has traction control, something I wish my box had...

I wouldn't bother with a sequential setup, bank-to-bank works great. Plus no need for a cam sensor.

Thanks for the reference. If my googling is accurate, here is the URL for other folks curious about the system: http://force-efi.com/fast.htm. I'll read up on it, but I can't help but admit the Force Fuel Injection system sure looks like the system installed on the TA-Performance combo. Interesting . . . .

Thanks again,

Cheers, Edouard

[pmuller9]

I called TA Performance.

They did not offer any support for the 6 mpg increase claim.
The ECU shown in the catalog for the Tuned Port Fuel Injection manifolds is a Haltech unit. Haltech has discontinued some of the smaller units and recommends the Sport 2000 for your application. What this means is purchasing the manifold from TA and using the EFI system of your choice. To use a sequential EFI system requires a cam sync pulse and a timing pulse so a dual sync distributor (not included) and an electronic ignition system will be needed along with fuel pump, regulator, fuel injectors and whatever else.
At this point you pay someone to tune your system on a chassis dyno or do the tuning yourself.

TA Performance is offering the FAST EZ EFI (Not shown in the catalog yet). It is a self learning system (like the Powerjection) allowing ease of installation and no EFI tuning ability necessary. It does not map the timing so the distributor is still doing that job.

TA suggested that if you are going to replace the 300 you might as well get a 455 and go the same route as the 350. The cost will be the same and you will have much more power with the same resulting gas mileage. They offer a high flow water pump for the big block which will take care of any cooling problem.

Summary:

The easiest and cheapest way to do EFI is with the Fast EZ EFI or the Powerjection.
These TBI units have minimal installation and they do the tuning for you as you drive.

Port injection allows you to control both fuel and spark and if done properly can outperform both carbureted and throttle body injection. If you know your way around a laptop computer and are willing to learn what each map and table is for, with a little outside help you can tune your car. Then you will have fun making small changes and test driving to see the results.

There are other considerations such as compression ratios, camshafts and transmissions for achieving gas mileage but will save that for later.

Paul

[bobc455]

Tuning yourself is not rocket science. If you can tune a carb'd motor with a distributor, once you digest the concept of volumetric efficiency (not that complicated) the rest is a piece of cake.

A lot of people are intimidated by EFI, so a few companies have tried this self-learning system and I think they are crap (just my opinion). Tune it yourself, a human can tune better than a computer. Instead, worry about the cost of the system and the difficulty of installation - the programming is pretty easy.

However for the sake of this discussion, I have to think that FI is not a worthwhile investment and leave it at that (but maybe you want to install it for other reasons). I'm happy to discuss anything about FI.

By the way, Force is the company that I purchased my system from and I like them a lot. At the time I did my system, TA hadn't introduced their FI system, so I sent my manifold to Force and they did the machining. They also put together a package that was pretty comprehensive, including the injectors, fuel pump, plumbing, rails, throttle body, and so on. They even offered support, but like I said before it's not that hard to understand and tune yourself. But for the record, Force has nothing to do with TA.

If you decide to pursue it, let me know - there is some advice about fuel pumps that I would consider especially important.

-Bob C.

[SammaS]

Don't overlook the fact that a factory EFI system can be awapped to your 300. Like one from a Rover, there are tons of them sitting in junkyards. Or one from a TBI 350 found in just about everything. Thats the cheapest way into EFI. There are systems like Megasquirt that make controlling everything easy.

In my mind, the only reason I see to change to EFI is for driveability. No chokes to worry about. No floats to worry about. You know the A/F ratio is right because it's running an O2 (wideband is the way to go). Sure a carb is easier, cheaper (sometimes), basically the same efficiency when tuned properly and original.

I prefer EFI, thats just how I roll. My 63 Lesabre is getting a Vortec 8100. Why? Because it's different, big and will have perfect driveability.

[pmuller9]

there is some advice about fuel pumps that I would consider especially important.
-Bob C.[/quote]

I have 2 EFI projects coming up. Both are show cars. One is a 65 Impala small block and the other is a 33 Buick Victoria 2 door with a 263 S8, 16 port aluminum head. The owner wants separate throttle bodies with velocity stacks. The FAST XFI was the initial choice but I am open to any suggestions. Need advice on fuel pumps and regulators and anything else that would be helpful.
I normally work with the Bigstuff3 24 injector, 2000+ hp twin turbo engines that use mechanical fuel pumps.
Thanks in advance
Paul