Nailhead Lifter Noise

**conroy** · 11-05-2005, 06:05 PM

Well I had a lot of leaves to rake today, but I did manage to remove the right valve cover and rocker arm assembly. OH MY GOD! I never imagined it would be THAT bad. Not that I have anything to compare to, but it was like looking into the bowels of hell. The sludge is a dark silver/grey color. At its worst, about a quarter inch thick in places. I started scraping the worst of it out. Bought some parts cleaning brushes and kerosene. I have some of that fancy environmentally friendly cleaner, but it just seemed right to use kerosene on a 1964 vintage. Any problem with that? In the midst of the sludge there were pieces of some type of washer. Although I did not examine them that carefully, I laid them aside to see if I can figure out what they were. It looks like there are enough pieces for two complete washers. They are a little odd in that there is a concentric ridge about midway in the circumfrance. They almost look like an odd thrust washer or maybe a keeper for the valve cover bolts. Any ideas?

**mottrodder** · 11-06-2005, 09:00 AM

Conroy, Thanks for the update. That is how we learn from other people's experiences without getting dirty. I think the "washer" pieces you found are the remains of valve seals. This is a good sign as the blue smoke may very well be cured by replacing the seals. Since you stated in your original post that you are somewhat new to the game, I hope you don't think any of us responders are talking down to you. You can replace the valve seals without removing the heads. It is some work but not a big deal. I suggest you buy a motor manual. Most auto swap meets have a guy that is selling old Chilton or similar manuals. Most book stores carry some kind as well. Around here, old manuals seem to go for $25 to $40 or so. Get one that covers your year. These manuals have all the specs for your motor plus general information on repairs and interpreting things like compression and vacuum readings. Regarding using kerosene: I suggest not running the motor with the crud/kerosene in the motor. After your clean out, flush as I mentioned in my original post. After a good under the valve cover clean out (both sides) and new valve seals (also both sides) you may be pleasantly surprised and find that you solved your problems. You may be tempted to pull the valley cover and clean there also. You have to weigh the possible good against the possible harm (crud in the lifters or oil pump screen). I suggest not doing it unless you think you see some symptoms. Good luck

Ed Raner · 11-06-2005, 12:57 PM

I had a similar problem in a different model Buick one time and couldn't locate the problem. After talking with a bunch of other Riv owners about it, one of them came up with a service memo about the oil pick up tube. I didn't read the memo, I was just told it existed. I think it was for engines in the early 70's. It could apply to your situation. The tube apparently could work itself loose where it connects to the block and when the engine got into a higher RPM mode, the pump would start sucking air into the tube from the place it worked loose rather than pull the oil from the crankcase. When running a low speeds this wouldn't occur, but at the higher RPM's, the lifters would collapse from a lack of oil.

**Judd** · 11-06-2005, 04:14 PM

I dont think the Nailheads have any removable oil dip stick tube to fall off just a hole in the block? I know 53 to 56 motors don't.

**conroy** · 11-07-2005, 06:34 PM

Mottrodder, talk to me as if I am ignorant, you will probably be right. I have accepted all of the comments as very usefull. Now that I am in the engine, I am committed. I plan to remove both valve covers, carb, and valley cover. After I have seen the crud, it can't be any better elswhere. I have the service manual for 1964. You know the 2" thick book that covers everything. Are you refering to a different service manual? I am a little concerned about breaking loose so much crud and what is going to happen to it. I plan to very carefully drain and replace the oil and filter several times after I finish. I also just ordered a can of POR Buick Green engine paint. I am going to assume that when I get done the engine will be running better AND look better. I think I attached a photo of the focus of my attention.

**mottrodder** · 11-08-2005, 04:21 PM

Conroy, Thanks for the picture. Your Riv is stunning, absolutely beautiful. I think your manual should cover the items I mentioned. I have some Ford manuals, and some Chilton manuals, and they all have general knowledge and general repair sections. You should be able to pick up a lot of good basic information. Regarding your symptoms, one of the later threads suggested that the oil pick up tube on the oil pump may be loose and starving the pump. This is a possibility, but probably a very rare one. If your engine is really crudded up, the screen on the oil pump may be partially blocked. If your upper clean job does not cure your problems, you may wind up pulling the pan, cleaning the inside of the pan, and also cleaning the oil pick up screen. My approach to situations such as your is to investigate, diagnose, and start with the least expensive and easiest possiblilites. One nice thing about nailheads is that you don't have to drain the radiator or remove the distributor to remove the intake manifold. Be sure you clean the oil passages inside the rocker arm shafts and the holes to the rockers themselves. Be very careful that you get the shaft assemblies reassembled exactly as they came apart and that they are reinstalled on the same side. That front pedestal with the oversized hole is critical. New valve seals are probaby in order as well. Keep in touch.

**conroy** · 11-09-2005, 05:13 PM

Mottrodder, I really appreciate your thoughts on this. With all the things I have going on right now, I know this project may drag out. I will continue to update as I make progress. There may be some time between posts, but I will keep everyone posted. Thanks again.

**alan detrick** · 11-13-2005, 12:49 PM

Having Been And Still Am A Buick Engine Builder For 35 Plus Years I Feel Confident To Agree With The Advice Given As To The Cause Being Oil Starvation As Reguards The Oil Pick-up Screen Being Cloged With Sludge And Carbon. The Memo About Screen Loosness Aplies To 350 Engines About 68-70 As I Remember. Unless Your Engine Is A 66 Only... There Are No Valve Stem Seals Used! I Know This Seams Strange But Buick Never Used Seals Until 66 On The Last Year Of The Nailhead. I Think It Was For A Little Cleaner Emissions. This Is Not To Say Someone May Have Done A Valve Job Years Ago And Machined The Guides For Seals. As For The Amount Of Crud And Sludge In Your Engine, Sounds Like Many Years Of Penzoil Use. Rislone Has Always Been The Best Cure For That Brand Of Oil. Hope This Helps Until You Can Pull The Engine And Do It All.

**conroy** · 11-13-2005, 07:27 PM

Thanks for your advice Alan. Since my last post I have ordered new gaskets, and valve stem seals from Cars, Inc. The valve stem seals were listed for 1963-1965 401 and 425. You can't prove it by me, all I know is what I read. I like the work ethic of starting with the easiest and working toward the more difficult. I am still hoping that when I am done with the upper part of the engine, it will postpone the inevitable rebuild. If it doesn't then I will tackle dropping the pan. It is obvious to me that what I am doing now would need to be done regardless. I feel as though I have nothing to lose, and an education to gain. Today I ordered a valve spring compresser and air hold fitting set. I'll let you know how stupid I feel after I remove the valve springs and find no place to put seals

I worked on cleaning up the rocker arm assembly and the area around the valves, along with the oil gallies. I really hope my documentation might be useful to others who might have the same limited experience as I.

**conroy** · 11-22-2005, 05:42 PM

Since my last post I have continued (slowly

) to clean the right side valve train. I have discovered the hollow rocker arm shaft to be full of chunks of crude, the same chunks that have obviously flaked off of the valve cover. I have wire brushed the inside surface of the valve cover. I soaked the shaft in kerosene for several days, then blew out all the oiling holes with my air tool. I have also found that the rear oil galley, that terminates in the rear rocker pedestal bolt hole is also plugged up. I have filled it with kerosene and am letting it soak until I have time this weekend to continue. It seems to me that these combined restrictions could have been enough to create inadequate oiling, leading to excessive lifter noise. I will continue on this weekend. Thanks to everyone for their ideas and support.