New to forum - need body help

[L Hop]

Hello, I'm new to the forum, and am not even sure how it works. I recently bought a 53 Buick Super 4-door. Runs great, just had brakes done.

My main project is the front body. Both front fenders and doors are pretty beat up. I'm leaning toward finding used fenders, and NORS door skins, and having a "decent" (not super) body shop make the transformation. (Haven't really found the right guy yet.) I also need new right rocker panel. I've found 2 places for the rocker panels. I've also found the skins, though they seem pretty expensive at $200 per. Had some leads on the fenders, but no definites. Have been in contact with Gary Bauer (as someone on this site recommended) but he hasn't gotten back to me yet with specifics. Any ideas or help out there? Much appreciated.

PS: Love the Buick, don't even rerally care that much that the front looks like crap.

[MARTINSR]

I don't have any suggestions on where to get the parts, but here are some ideas on how to find a shop to do it.

Brian

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>

Confessions of a body shop owner.
By Brian Martin

“Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?”, “How do I get my body shop to work on my car?”, “My car is being held for ransom!”, or just simply “Body shop Blues”. I’m sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don’t beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior college and take a course or two in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can’t learn from a “regular” business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liquor store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are usually owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The business man makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe’s Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things as what they can “become”, not what they “are”. When Joe sees a car he doesn’t see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don’t believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said, few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Coddington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don’t doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vise on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask “Cool car, is that yours?” if he says “Naw, it’s a customers”, BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn’t have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.


2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be damn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They run a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the “Cadster”. It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn’t have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn’t take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?


So let’s say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can’t get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don’t allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a “junior chemist”, they guy that mixes products and doesn’t follow tech sheets.

To be continued........

[MARTINSR]

Continued from previous post.....

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You “suggest” to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don’t EVER give him a deposit and leave the car (at least not more than a tiny amount of the estimate, say 5%). This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks or MONTHS while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don’t trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don’t want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let’s say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn’t done it or he has done poor work, you can then say “I am sorry to yank your chain, I don’t have any more money, I just lost my job” and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little ’58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30’s and 40’s vintage Fords) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn’t pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like “I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me” more like “I can’t wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers”. Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don’t get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to “show off” his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says “fix dents and rust” as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The “wife” is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.

[Tom Gallagher]

Hey LHop

How U' Doin"?

I see the YOU are a NEW MEMBER!

WELCOME ABOARD!

Gary Bauer runs a Mom & Pop type place

He has a lot a requests which take time since he has to check his inventory.

With some time he will get back to you.

He has a lot of parts, God only knows where he gets them from, but Gary is the best source I'm aware of.

There may be some others. If there are perhaps a fellow member will step up and forward to You the Valued Information.

Of course You could get some quality used parts from a Buick Salvage Yard such as Ken Reeves Wheatbelt Buick or Ken Schmidts Buick Bonery.

Just an alternative suggestion. Sometimes you have to revert to plan "B"

Regards,

Tom Gallagher

[L Hop]

I had already read MARTINSR's discussions of body shops - that's one thing that made me join the forum - it was very helpful. In fact, I'm considering what I think was a recommendation from that article - to have somebody do the easiest side first, just to make sure they are on the up and up and do what I want. The only problem is that I'm told if they take off the front bumper, which they will have to, it is "tensioned" and may not go back as easily. Plus it will have to be done again for the other side. True???

I'm still waiting to hear from Gary Bauer. I'm not having much luck locating Buick used parts lots - at least not for a '53. Stll hunting.

[OLe JIM]

Here in the North-east--most Salvage yards Crush all the Heavy cars--& finding any thing? newer than 1990 is allmost Impossible--I just Followed an older model Riveier< spelling? Home--Beautiful!--some sharp CAR!--here I see a Trend?--as most that can Afford?--buy late models--still under Warrantee--my daily driver is an 86 Buick Century--V-6 Auto--w/over 400,000 miles--was a Taxi since New!--I just Lost my Alternator--NO problem!--as the Dead ones a Life-time Garranteed Job--just Gotta find the Receipt--most car owners Here!--don*t work on thier Own!-vehicles--don*t know How? I assume??-& w/ Mechanic hourly rates as high as they are today!--if? You can*t re-pair? You Own--even the simple Stuff!--Oil changes--adjusting Brakes--installing Belts & Hoses--become Big Buck Items--as most garages have Labor Prices Posted!--$35.00 Mimimum--& most large Garages get $50.00 an Hour--I*M a retired long Haul Trucker & for $75.00 bucks an Hour at Truck Garages--I*LL Skin a Knuckel or Two--doing my Own Re-pairs!--I have a personal Preventive mantainance Plan--every FALL & SPRING--I look over evrery thing under the Hood & re-place any thing that looks like its Wore or getting a little Crapy--Hoses--Belts--rusted Clamps--battery Terminals--ECT--I have another set of Wheels--one set for Summer & another for Winter!--& the Complete Tire change over I can DO in just a few Minutes!--& I*M not into this Modern Computerized Stuff--my Ole 86 Buick died on ME the other Night--Dam Crank Sencer craped Out--had to be Ramp trucked Home--has a Hell of a Job finding IT!--way up under the Exhaust manifold--replacing It was Pretty Easy!-but-cleaning that Area was?-well You know?--& it ran pretty Good until the Alternator Craped Out--I Dono? about my Ole 86 Buick?--best Heater I ever Had!--after warming UP--I get more Heat w/ the Blower OFF-that any Car I have ever Owned!--& I don*t mean just Warm AIR!--I mean HOT!!--I was just at a local Salvage Yard & noticed a late model top of the Line Buick--newer than I really Like--but--after inquiring??--as It looked new?--whats wrong w/ that Buick!--Tranny only backs UP!--& the Guy that Owned IT--couldn*t afford to re-pair It--a Park Avenue--all the Toys--Good Rubber--& not a Scratch?--interior looks like New!--so I Guess I*LL be re-building a Tranny--& give It too Our Daughter thats a member of the HEY! lOOK at what I GOT! CLUB!--if You know what I Mean ??--ME I*M Happy w/ any thing? that Goes when YOU wanta Go some where?--& I*LL Crank my Windows UP & Down by Hand & even Shift if its a Stick--NO Problem!- Take Care --Ole JIM--

[MARTINSR]

The only problem is that I'm told if they take off the front bumper, which they will have to, it is "tensioned" and may not go back as easily. Plus it will have to be done again for the other side. True???

Now, I have never removed the bumper from a 53 Super but I have from just about every other GM car from the fifties. But I can't for the life of me imagine what in the world is this guy talking about. No, some of these cars are kind of a pain to pull off the bumpers but there is no magical, mysterious conditions. If you are a pro you pull the bumper off and re-install it, period.

Brian

[L Hop]

I appreciate the info on the bumper. It sounded a little fishy to me too. I noticed you're in Fremont, I am also in the Bay Area. I assume you don't do this type of work, or have no interest, (although I wish you would!), but can you give me some leads for East Bay body shops? If you'd rather do it by private email, I understand. Thanks for the help.

[MARTINSR]

In Oakand there is a shop called K&C or K&J or something like that. They did a few Mustangs for by brothers brother-in-law and they are darn nice. Super fast work (unheard of in restoration work) and decent priced as well.

If you can't find them let me know and I will get the exact name.

Brian

[L Hop]

Thanks Brian,

I actually took what I perceived to be your advice (sorta) and left my '53 at an Oakland shop today. I deciced to do it in small pieces. They are going to do only the left front fender and door all by hand (no new parts or door skins). This is the smallest, simplest part of the job, the price is reasonable but not bargain basement ($1200), and I felt good about them. They said they would be done in a week. I'll see how they do, and if it's good, proceed to the next step, or if not, call the shop you recommended.