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Thread: 1968 PP Code Engine Questions

  1. #11
    the 225ci v6 shares bore size ( 3.750" ), stroke ( 3.400" ) and deck height with the 300ci v8s and ended nominal GM production applications with the 1967 model year.

    the 231ci v6 keeps the 300 deck height and stroke ... but expands the bore size to the Buick 350s 3.800". the problem is that the 231ci ( Odd Fire, the Even Fire with split throw crank pins came even later ) wasn't introduced until the 1975 model year.

    Buick 6 cylinder applications from 1968-74 were handled entirely by the Chevrolet 250ci L-6 ... so you wouldn't really think GM was running the Buick v6 production line JUST as a supply channel for Kaiser, given that Kaiser/AMC was placing these engines through the 1971 model year. and, of course, AMC got their panties all twisted up having model lines that were using GM engines so they quickly substituted AMC engines wherever possible after they bought Kaiser out.

    so what i suspect happened is that Kaiser was buying production off of the 1966-67 GM model year run, in which Buick was still placing the 225ci v6
    ...
    and then bought the tooling in 1968 when Buick went to the 350 for all small block applications and the Chevy for 6cyl applications.

    this would explain why you're getting conflicting stories. because Kaiser really would have done BOTH things, depending on the model year.

    and, supposedly, GM bought the v6 tooling *back* from AMC when they fired v6 production back up in 1975.

    https://jalopnik.com/5378755/engine-of-the-day-buick-v6
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buford26 View Post
    Any chance you can post a picture of the engine serial number? I suspect it might be 48Z111695, which would make sense from a Buick perspective. I've attached a picture of a similar engine number stamp from another 1968 Fremont car (48Z101820).

    48Z111695
    4 = Buick
    8 = 1968 model year
    Z = built at Fremont, Ca
    111695 = sequential number, range for Fremont was 100001 to 120752 for V8 cars


    I don't have a picture of a 1968 replacement engine, but I've attached one from a 1969 car, decodes as follows:

    B9E61802
    B = Buick
    9 = 1969 model year
    E = Engine plant
    61802 = sequential number


    I've also attached a couple pictures from 1970-1971 replacement engines as well.

    http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?thr...-block.167034/
    http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?thr...nd-etc.317301/
    OK, the owner has confirmed the number (no pic) to be 48Z111695 as Buford26 surmised. Does that sequential number correspond to the car VIN, or is it merely an engine production sequential? Going by the day code (322) and the range, whether it's car or engine production, it seems to me that would be a late year build, nearly into the '69 model year. Agree?

    None of this adds weight to the theory that it's being some sort of an experimental installation. If it corresponds to a car VIN, that pretty much kills it. If an engine sequential, the date works against it. If it was part of an experiment with a 4-barrel engine...unlikely to have been done on a '66 vehicle... they would most likely have used a current production 1414D or 1414X (1414D Super Wagoneer or 1414X Custom Special... and the Super Wagoneer variant was on it's way out at this point replaced with the similar-but-downgraded Custom Special), and since they were already buying engines from Buick, they would likely have just bought a new engine from Buick, probably one with a replacement number on it. Or it would have been marked in some other way for KJC.

    Again, all you Buick "Nailheads" ( : < ), many thanks for taking the time and effort to help me with this!

  3. #13
    if Dennis Manner is still kicking around, you want to get the question to him. he was intimately involved in most of the awesome Buick engine stuff from the 1960s to the 80s.
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
    H.H. Goddard, Human Efficiency (1920)

  4. #14
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    8Z111695 would be the last 8 digits of the donor car VIN, so just an engine out of a production car. Closest cars I have to it are 444398Z110954 with a build date of 02D (fourth week of February 1968) based on the cowl tag, 444378Z111007 with a build date of March 1968 based on the POP, and 446678Z112822 with a build date of 03C (third week of March 1968) based on the cowl tag. The engine date code is not a straight day of the year. It goes on some two year cycle and the highest value I've seen is 778. Engines were usually built about a month before the car. The model year usually began in the beginning of August.
    Sean Smith
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buford26 View Post
    8Z111695 would be the last 8 digits of the donor car VIN, so just an engine out of a production car. Closest cars I have to it are 444398Z110954 with a build date of 02D (fourth week of February 1968) based on the cowl tag, 444378Z111007 with a build date of March 1968 based on the POP, and 446678Z112822 with a build date of 03C (third week of March 1968) based on the cowl tag. The engine date code is not a straight day of the year. It goes on some two year cycle and the highest value I've seen is 778. Engines were usually built about a month before the car. The model year usually began in the beginning of August.
    Veeeerry EEEEterrestink!

    July August is when most manufacturers started model year production, so I was surprised when someone mentioned day 322 of the year.

    One last question. Just based on the last eight, is there any way to predict what Buick model this engine might have been in? Did the Fremont plant produce all models or were they limited to a particular range of models. Just wondering what model Buick a 350 4-barrel engine was most likely to be in.

    Really appreciate the information!

  6. #16
    i would think that we don't have anything like enough info necessary to narrow it down to a single model. nor would it be available from this engine, alone.

    sequential production numbers for Rivs and Electras typically have their own number series separate the all of the other model lines, Rivs starting at 900001 Electras usually starting at 600001(?).

    but the standard production sequence ( 100001 and up ) encompasses all the other model lines.

    and the PP code engine, while the hottest Buick 350ci available that year, was still available in pretty much every model line except for the Electra ( C Body ), Riv ( E Body ) and Wildcat ( B Body ). the Le Sabre was a full size B Body, but it was Buick's 'entry level' senior car and so could still be had with a small block.

    https://www.teambuick.com/reference/...ine_number.php


    now watch Buford or Todd show up and blow me out of the water with Buick factory documentation ...
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
    H.H. Goddard, Human Efficiency (1920)

  7. #17
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    I can't narrow it down to a specific model, but in 1968 Fremont only built A-body platform cars, so the Special Deluxe/Skylark/Skylark Custom/GS/Sportwagon series:




    https://www.teambuick.com/reference/years/68.php
    Sean Smith
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    MBCC# 2122
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    1957 Special 4-door Riviera (hardtop) model 43

  8. #18
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    Bob K Mando's data is good and on the mark. The best we can do is build on top of info in preceding posts. The 350-4 was standard only in the GS-350. It was optional in all other intermediates (A bodies) except the GS-400. Gas mileage was not as good as the 350-2. The higher compression ratio of the 350-4 required premium fuel.

    Then as stated it was optional on the LeSabre. A popular option for the LeSabre was the "400 package" which included the 350-4 and a Super Turbine 400 (aka TH400) transmission. Included was a 400 nameplate on the rear quarter panels. Onlookers then and now mistakenly thought the car had a 400cid engine.

    Without having any documentation for backup, I would say the 350-4 would have appeared most likely in a LeSabre. The large car would have benefitted from the increased acceleration probably more than the intermediates. About 180,000 LeSabres were built which approaches the total of all non-GS400 intermediates at around 214,000.

    As for intermediates like the Fremont-built cars, the 350-4 probably showed up more in the premium Skylarks and Sportwagons. Buyers of these cars would have been less concerned with gas mileage and premium fuel than those buying base model Special Deluxes.
    What has been, can be again. (Bob Wills, 1942)

  9. #19
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    We struggle here in the forums trying to understand the 3 digits in the engine production code number. The intention is to use it for determining engine build date. Even the Buick documents of the time are in disagreement. Some indicate the number is the day when engine was built. Others (see attached) indicate the number denotes day and shift when built. Documents don't say whether day is a calendar date or a day in the model year of the car.

    The factory was constantly admonishing dealers through service bulletin reminders to include the engine production code number on all trouble reports going back to the factory. The factory would then issue notices saying possible upgrades are needed on all engines before code 456 etc. They would also notify dealers of mid-year engine part changes by issuing a bulletin saying something like new valve cover gaskets going into production on engines coded 345 and higher.

    There's a more in-depth thread on the topic over in the ID and Decoding forum regarding a '63 LeSabre convertible with engine code JR666. Thankfully Buford26 supplied body plate weekly date codes along with engine production code numbers for several '63 Buicks. I found a few more from cars for sale online. Then all the '63 dealer service bulletins were reviewed for more clues.

    One bulletin denotes a running mid-year part change took place on 1/28/63 at engine code 479. A rough model was then constructed using a 3-shift, 5-day a week factory schedule. That means the code digits advance at the rate of 15/week or about 65/month. We know from looking at the data points of the known '63 cars, the code numbers are advancing faster than one per day. By laying out each week on a 1962 and '63 calendar, the body plate week codes along with the known and predicted engine codes overlay each other quite well. But it's still not precise enough to use the engine code number to determine build date.

    Most sample cars were built at the Flint, MI plant where the engines were built for all assembly plants. The original poster's car was built in an outlying assembly plant. The model calendar showed his engine a little 'older' than expected if it was a Flint-built car. This would be explained by having to ship the engine from Flint to the outlying plant.

    So to use the rough model on your engine, say code 479 was built on 1/28/68. Backing up 10-1/2 weeks (157 production shifts of the code number) would put 322 at the third or fourth week of November '67. Amazingly that's about where Bob K Mando's estimate put it.
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    Last edited by TODD; 07-18-2018 at 03:32 AM.
    What has been, can be again. (Bob Wills, 1942)

  10. #20
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    Here's a dealer service bulletin showing a stud and clip were added to V8 engines starting 11/15/67. If your engine does not have this upgrade, it dates to earlier than 11/15/67. Unfortunately no engine code number is given.

    Wonder what 1968 Jeep dealer service bulletins might show?
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    What has been, can be again. (Bob Wills, 1942)

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