From the Reference Section:
- Buick Compound Carburetion
- Buick F-263 Head/Gasket Swaps, effects on compression
- Straight Eight Engine Specifications
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263 Head X-Sections
    - Building a High Performance Straight Eight
- Buick Straight Eight Lifter Adjustment
- Straight Eight Intake Manifold X-Sections
- Straight Eight Oil Supply Update
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Thread: Coming soon: a fantastic new head for the 263!

  1. #11
    I was hoping that the Buick community would at least be happy to contribute ideas, experience, and expertise to the project.

    i'm sure there are a lot who will be willing to help. and Buick people being Buick people, we like to see 'oddball' things being done an oddball way.

    they're just warning you not to expect a whole lot in the way of additional sales. and given that Saltcat says it's not going to be legal at Bonneville ... how many people are still trying to hot rod straight 8 engines?

    another 'problem' with this concept is that, really, you're just converting a Buick straight 8 so it's more like a Duesenberg S-8. Duesies had DOHC, 4v and superchargers in 1928 ... on a 420ci engine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duesenb...aight-8_engine



    Siamese porting is not always the demon it's made to be.

    i seriously doubt there's going to be any siamese ports on this project.
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
    H.H. Goddard, Human Efficiency (1920)

  2. #12
    Also the class displacement limit for Bonneville is 325 Cu. in. so 263 is a little small even with an 1/8 "bore.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Untame View Post
    Realistically, no matter what it won't be cheap.
    I think with that statement right there, you pretty much eliminated any possibilty of potential sales to the average guy in the Buick community. You also need to justify the "wont be cheap" cost of this product, since you yourself said that all the R&D developmental costs are going to be absorbed upfront by these "deep pocket" customers, there is no reason what so ever for the products made after that to be anything but affordable. Also, you are wanting input from us that can obviously put these two projects over the top and really be a unique masterpiece that will no doubt line the pockets of your boss man, but yet no chance of reciprocation back to the inline community that helped bring this to fruition. Just look at it from this side of the fence. You want all the input and advice to help hit a home run with these projects and be the one to make all the money from it, but there isn't going to be any return or incentive for those that contributed. Its hard to get enthusiastic about that.....
    There's no such thing as too much cam....only not enough engine!

  4. #14
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    1. What features would you dream about seeing on an aftermarket Straight 8 head / intake / exhaust?
    2. What should be done ideally to strengthen the bottom end of the 263?
    3. What design software will be indespensible in the process (we're looking at 4STHead)?
    4. What price is reasonable for the perfect "ultimate" straight 8 head conversion?
    5. Anyone know the VE of a stock 263?

    I'm all ears.

    Untame
    One of the deciding factors in our design was to make a cylinder head that allowed the engine to be recognized as a Buick straight 8. (Customer requirement)
    So the decision was to do a 16 port pushrod design and keep the intake and exhaust ports on the driver side with the spark plugs on the passenger side. We also made it so the stock valve cover could be used.

    We also considered that if the design was carried over to the 320, it might fall within the "Spirit of the Rules" of the racing community.

    The crankcase extends below the main caps so cross-bolted main caps would be best.
    The main webs are not fully machined so there is very little material to support a vertical 4 bolt arrangement.

    The stock hydraulic lifters were oil fed from the rocker arms down through the pushrods.
    In order to accommodate modern lifters, we were looking at drilling an oil passage in the side of the lifter gallery the length of the block or running an external supply line to the side of each of the 16 lifter bores.

    All of our designs are done using Solid Works.

    The 1953 engine was rated at 125 hp @ 3800 rpm.
    Just based on airflow a 263 cid engine @ 3800 rpm with 100% VE has the potential to make 200 hp so overall engine efficiency is only 62.5%. This 62.5% is not VE alone because the 125 hp output is also affected by the compression ratio and other factors not related to VE but we can use it as an indicator anyway.
    If a head can provide 100% VE @ 5000 rpm, the power potential is raised to 263 hp or 1 hp/cu in.
    Now add forced induction and look at the potential.

    Price will end up including the custom cam and gear drive, block modifications needed to accommodate the valve train and the new head as a start.

    Paul
    Last edited by pmuller9; 02-06-2012 at 08:27 AM.

  5. #15
    Paul, I think a head as you described would be better recieved, especially if it crossed over and included both engine groups. But still the cost is going to be the straw that breaks the back of the average enthusiasts. A long term product that makes its money back slowly and over time is probably going to be the best for the user, but not so much for the seller. Before entering into such a venture, you should ask yourself would I rather sell one head for $10,000 dollars each, or 1000 heads for $1000 dollars each, and truly have a product that benefits the industry as a whole for many years to come.
    There's no such thing as too much cam....only not enough engine!

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Untame View Post
    Sounds like there isn't a lot of enthusiasm for the idea in the Buick crowd. Like I've stated, our primary market is a different group of people, and they will be plenty excited about the product. I was hoping that the Buick community would at least be happy to contribute ideas, experience, and expertise to the project.
    Please don't draw your conclusions so hastily! You have to take into account that:

    1. I'd say 90% of the ACTIVE members of this forum are all for hotrodding the 320 big block. Kim (alleycat) and Paul (pmuller) are the only ones I can recall who have delved into the secrets of the 260 engine.

    2. The guys with the $$$$ don't hang around on these forums - they do what they're best at: making money and bringing it over to you to build stuff for them. I assume the guys that hang around here are like me - getting a kick out of finding clever solutions, fabricating our own stuff, adopting parts from other makes and so forth. I get a kick out of the fact that a hi-po Buick straight-8 cannot be built just by clicking on a webshop.

    3. The idea of a modern aluminum head, cast or billet, has been tossed around on this forum for years, by creative minds and proficient machinists, to no avail so far. I'd say many have become skeptical about the whole idea ever materializing

    4. Most of the STR-8 enthusiasts have kept the STR-8 in favor of the SB Chevy, just for the fact that they want to preserve the period looks and spirit of the original engine. That said, don't make anything too exotic. A Ford Flathead equipped with Ardun hemi heads is not a flathead anymore. Similarly, a Buick STR-8 equipped with an OHC head would have lost it's spirit.

    Create an engine with modern drivability. Carbs or EFI, customer's choice. A 16-port head, all ports on the same side (my choice) or crossflow, high-speed ports with ample flow. Utilize modern off-the-shelf valves, springs etc. Combustion chamber that features a proper squish area and gives you a 9:1 compression with a flat top piston (offer the pistons to go with it), O-ring gasket. A thick-enough deck so those who want more compression can shave it. Laser-cut flanges so everyone can build their own intake and headers. Roller cam, roller lifters and roller rockers. Stiff pushrods. The lower end is good enough as is. Nobody ever broke a stock rod. The crank is fine too. Aluminum rods won't do for a street engine due to limited cycle life. Titanium rods would be great for weight savings, but long-enough forged blanks don't exist. Billet main caps would be nice, too. A performance damper, pulleys and bracketry for alternator, P/S pump and A/C compressor. A billet flywheel, too. How's that for a wishlist?

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jyrki View Post
    Please don't draw your conclusions so hastily! You have to take into account that:

    1. I'd say 90% of the ACTIVE members of this forum are all for hotrodding the 320 big block. Kim (alleycat) and Paul (pmuller) are the only ones I can recall who have delved into the secrets of the 260 engine.

    2. The guys with the $$$$ don't hang around on these forums - they do what they're best at: making money and bringing it over to you to build stuff for them. I assume the guys that hang around here are like me - getting a kick out of finding clever solutions, fabricating our own stuff, adopting parts from other makes and so forth. I get a kick out of the fact that a hi-po Buick straight-8 cannot be built just by clicking on a webshop.

    3. The idea of a modern aluminum head, cast or billet, has been tossed around on this forum for years, by creative minds and proficient machinists, to no avail so far. I'd say many have become skeptical about the whole idea ever materializing

    4. Most of the STR-8 enthusiasts have kept the STR-8 in favor of the SB Chevy, just for the fact that they want to preserve the period looks and spirit of the original engine. That said, don't make anything too exotic. A Ford Flathead equipped with Ardun hemi heads is not a flathead anymore. Similarly, a Buick STR-8 equipped with an OHC head would have lost it's spirit.

    Create an engine with modern drivability. Carbs or EFI, customer's choice. A 16-port head, all ports on the same side (my choice) or crossflow, high-speed ports with ample flow. Utilize modern off-the-shelf valves, springs etc. Combustion chamber that features a proper squish area and gives you a 9:1 compression with a flat top piston (offer the pistons to go with it), O-ring gasket. A thick-enough deck so those who want more compression can shave it. Laser-cut flanges so everyone can build their own intake and headers. Roller cam, roller lifters and roller rockers. Stiff pushrods. The lower end is good enough as is. Nobody ever broke a stock rod. The crank is fine too. Aluminum rods won't do for a street engine due to limited cycle life. Titanium rods would be great for weight savings, but long-enough forged blanks don't exist. Billet main caps would be nice, too. A performance damper, pulleys and bracketry for alternator, P/S pump and A/C compressor. A billet flywheel, too. How's that for a wishlist?
    That is quite a wishlist! A lot of it isn't directly related to the head, but I appreciate all of the perspective.

  8. #18

    16-port head

    You can locate all ports on the same side, by raising the intake ports higher than the exhausts, at an angle. Look up Salt Cat Racing on Youtube. They have built a 16-port head by milling and drilling and by welding/epoxing separate intake pipes in in the head at an angle. Doug (Buickguy) can tell you more about it if you are interested.

    Anyway, design the head so that it leaves something on the table for us rodders to improve upon

    I brought up the camshaft because we are limited to regrinding the old cores. A completely new roller cam would be spectacular!

  9. #19
    "Although our primary purpose in developing this head is to meet the demands of our customers and build engines for the cars we make, we do believe there will be significant interest in the Buick crowd for an aftermarket head (or complete conversion kit). Also, we are starting with the 263, but once that proves successful we may scale it for the other 8s (in fact, we might make the first one compatible with the 248 if it is possible)."

    To "prove[] successful" requires sales. An economist would say that demand for the product you describe would be "highly elastic," meaning that sales would be very strongly, but inversely, related to price. The expense of manufacturing plus profit expectations dictate price. Add the cost to install and you have the total cost to buyer.

    If you make a $2500 head kit that "looks Buick," bolts on, uses the existing cooling and lubrication systems, includes a modern piston/ring set that bolts to the stock rods, "Laser-cut flanges so everyone can build their own intake and headers," and is capable of making 200+ bhp on carb(s), I'll buy it. But I'm only looking for decent power and reliable driveability.

    Real high performance stuff (roller cams-lifters-pushrods, intake manifolds, headers, etc.) may find a market, but these are old engines, last made almost 60 years ago, and will not ever make power like modern engines. Thus the ultimate size of the high performance market is a limited sub-set of the already small potential market.

    If you want to be in the business of supplying in-line OHV heads/head kits for 1934-53 Buick I-8s (or also for similar or later vintage I-6 Chevys, GMCs, Fords, AMCs), you will need to drive the cost of manufacturing down to what the market will bear. Otherwise, sticking to high-end customs is the right direction.

  10. #20

    Pistons

    Piston design is directly related to combustion chamber design, so they go together. If not supplying the pistons, you should at least provide the job card number of your piston manufacturer. But, for economies of scale, you'd better make just as many piston sets as you're making heads.

    Gerry Duttweiler uses stock rods with the stock pinch bolt in all his builds to his customers, as well as in his own all-out supercharged 320 engine. He's using JE and Ross for custom pistons, and either one can make (or outsource) the required notch on the wristpin.

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