The "perfect ultimate" 263 head would be different per application. Are you building a head for high performance street, full out race, or somewhere in between?
Member
Coming soon: a fantastic new head for the 263!
"Soon" is a relative term.Anyway, we are in the idea stage right now. I'm trying to get my hands on a complete 263 in the Mississippi River region of Wisconsin / Minnesota so I can get in up to my elbows in research.
I work for a car builder that caters to high-end customers (the highest of the high-end -- our builds start at 1/4M$), and when our customers want something money is not a consideration. We are close to convincing a customer (or 2) to want a high-performance Buick Straight 8 in their build, so we are beginning the process of development.
I need the help of all of the brains on this forum with this process. I have some questions, and I'm open to any and all suggestions. At this point I can't talk about the specifics of our design, and to be honest, we're actually considering going a couple different directions with it, and even then there might be variations.
Although our primary purpose in developing this head is to meet the demands of our customers and build engines for the cars we make, we do believe there will be significant interest in the Buick crowd for an aftermarket head (or complete conversion kit). Also, we are starting with the 263, but once that proves successful we may scale it for the other 8s (in fact, we might make the first one compatible with the 248 if it is possible).
So...
1. What features would you dream about seeing on an aftermarket Straight 8 head / intake / exhaust?
2. What should be done ideally to strengthen the bottom end of the 263?
3. What design software will be indespensible in the process (we're looking at 4STHead)?
4. What price is reasonable for the perfect "ultimate" straight 8 head conversion?
5. Anyone know the VE of a stock 263?
I'm all ears.
Untame
Last edited by Untame; 02-04-2012 at 06:18 AM.
Member
The "perfect ultimate" 263 head would be different per application. Are you building a head for high performance street, full out race, or somewhere in between?
Member
Definitely street. The cars we build are elegant and meant for show and go, but not for the drag strip.Originally Posted by Janderson
Senior Member
1. OHC crossflow with angled valves. Could be a true hemi, but wouldn't necessarily have to be, as long as you can get decent sized valves in it. Maybe a 4 valve? How about dual plugs? For the cam(s) I would like to see a bevel gear shaft drive like on a Crosley, rather than a chain. Yes, I realize you would have to do something about the water pump. Definitely don't use a belt drive.
2. 4 bolt mains at least, maybe splayed or crossbolted. If you have $ to burn, maybe a billet crank and titanium rods. Larger than stock journals to get the crank stiffness up.
3. Sorry, I'm clueless about software.
4. If you stay with pushrods, 1/3 more than the price of a Wayne head, adjusted for 60 years worth of inflation. If you can come up with some kind of OHC design <drool......>, probably twice that.
5. I don't know how you would measure VE. IMO, BMEP charted against CR is a better indicator of good engine design if naturally aspirated.
I hope you will let us know how much of this actually gets into the production version.
Ray
Last edited by raycow; 02-04-2012 at 08:11 PM.
Senior Member
[QUOTE=Untame;84299 Although our primary purpose in developing this head is to meet the demands of our customers and build engines for the cars we make, we do believe there will be significant interest in the Buick crowd for an aftermarket head (or complete conversion kit).
Untame[/QUOTE]
Yes there will always be interest in discussing this type of product, but whether it can translate into actual sales is another story.
One thing to consider more than anything else is.....cost! You also need to look at other Inline markets that do offer a performance aluminum head, such as the Chevy 250/292 engines. This engine group is perhaps the largest(interest-wise)for current racing and performance builds. An aluminum 12 Port head is available that replaces the OEM siamese head(similar to the Straight 8), but at over $2500 just for the head(close to $4000 for the total package), total sales can be counted on both hands, even after being available for nearly 30 years. 2nd is the Small Ford 6 cylinder engine. A really nice aluminum Crossflow style head is available from the Aussie Ford cousin for less than $1000, and a brand new performance casting is also available that is even better flowing than the Aussie head. At $1700 bucks for the new aluminum head complete ready to bolt on, the sales of it are really weak and disappointing for the creater who is struggling to recoup his investment and development costs. Many who have bought the head have ended up flipping them on ebay because they cant afford the rest of the components necessary to complete their builds. Even the Aussie head conversion is rarely done, even though the cost is a smokin' deal. Now we come to the Straight 8 which is much farther down the list as far as size of potential customers compared to the Chevy or Ford inlines, and even fewer is actual enthusiasts that would seriously consider buying one. You have several Bonneville guys(2 or 3) and who else. Not to try to discourage you at all. But aside from the head, you are going to have to consider an application specific intake manifold, headers, valve cover, valve train, these are fine for your $1/4M custom car customers, but as the $$$$'s for the head conversion go up, you will see your target market get even smaller than the 2 or 3 that are possibilities so far. Every one likes to think that new technology will eventually catch up to their favorite engine and give them the long awaited holy grail of heads or custom rods and many other parts common to only the Small Block Chevy and other cookie cutter engines, and many will applaude your effort in trying to. A custom head has been discussed here many times before, and would be well recieved if you can pull it off for the right price. Good luck with it and keep us posted.
As far as software, I use Inventor and Solidworks for 3D modeling and FeatureCam for my CAM software, but if you don't already have working knowledge of them they have a really, really steep learning curve.
Last edited by CNC-Dude; 02-04-2012 at 10:11 PM.
There's no such thing as too much cam....only not enough engine!
Member
If we do this it will be profitable on the first one. In other words, our high end customers would be paying the development costs, so our conversion kit price would not need to recoup that. It will still be expensive, and I know there isn't a lot of demand for screaming Buicks. Our primary market is, and will remain, our build customers, but for those who are insanely passionate about their Buick Straight 8 we plan on making a conversion kit available.
Realistically, no matter what it won't be cheap.
Senior Member
Sorry, You can count the Bonneville guys out as they all run the 320's and you can't run an OHC. If you did you'd have to compete against modern V-8's. This head leaves us out. Have fun.
Doug
you know, the Buick small block family has already had several historical OHC conversions done to it ...
1966 and 67 F1 champion 3.0 liter Brabham / Repco
various v6 Indy and Indy Lights cars in the 80s / 90s
The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
Vladimir Lenin
Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
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Member
Sounds like there isn't a lot of enthusiasm for the idea in the Buick crowd. Like I've stated, our primary market is a different group of people, and they will be plenty excited about the product. I was hoping that the Buick community would at least be happy to contribute ideas, experience, and expertise to the project.
Junior Member
Guys
This comes along on every forum sooner or later and the most common answers are usually lump porting and reminders of crankshaft whip.
Dont any of you 1/4 million dollar builders ever use something like the Pontiac OHC 6 from a tempest or firebird? They made 2 versions 1 with split exhaust and a
Quadrajet,usually backed by a 3speed t10 and the other was a less radical camshaft with single exhaust & 1 bbl.
Siamese porting is not always the demon it's made to be. Anyone else have a 1980 Pontiac 301 with a factory turbo? Not only are the intake
Runners siamesed but they're different
Sizes in front than rear.
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