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Thread: The "epic" 430 rebuild caper!

  1. #1
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    Post The "epic" 430 rebuild caper!

    Dear Team Buick big-block gurus,

    I have been trying to get enough preliminaries out of the way so that I could start asking the really big questions about rebuilding this 430 engine from a 67 Electra 225. I think I have an overall plan for this job, but . . . there are a few minor details! I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on the plan so far and especially on the puzzlements I’m running into at the moment.

    The general scheme is to have the block machined locally and have “Buick sensitive” work done by TA Performance. The parts list is roughly this:


    • EGGE Pistons (L2255-8)
    • TA high capacity water pump (TA 1537BHP - ??)
    • TA reconditioned connecting rods (TA 1629A)
    • TA cam (TA RV-12) and hydraulic lifters (TA 1406)
    • Aluminum intake manifold (Probably Edelbrock Performer)
    • TA Performance "Stage-1 street eliminator" aluminum cylinder heads. This application requires 2" Intake and 1.650" Exhaust valve openings. Also need 455 lifters and pushrods to match heads.
    • TA aluminum valve covers (like TA 1327B) (ought to be worth at least 50 more horsepower! )


    At the local machine shop the following would be performed:

    • The engine would be first disassembled, hot tanked, and cleaned.
    • Then the block and crankshaft would be magnafluxed.
    • Next the crankshaft would be inspected and machined as required. The block would be then bored for the new pistons.
    • The TA reconditioned connecting rods would be installed.
    • The oil passage modifications would be performed.
    • The TA RV camshaft and lifers would be installed.
    • Then engine would be then reassembled with new freeze plugs, and the block would be rebalanced.
    • Finally the aluminum heads would be cleaned and rechecked.


    Back at Orinda Motors:

    • They would install the aluminum cylinder heads and Edelbrock Performer intake manifold.
    • They would install the high-capacity water pump and provide a new fan clutch and fan.
    • Install new timing cover with oil pump built-in (some confusion here - see below).
    • Change oil pan from mid-sump to rear-sump using 1971 or newer pick-up tube.
    • A HEI distributor would be installed.
    • The exhaust manifolds would be reused after cleaning and possibility porting.
    • A new alternator with built-in voltage regulator would be installed.
    • Finally either a rebuilt or replacement carburetor would be installed.


    To look ahead at the final goal, this engine is going to be matched to a 200-4R transmission from California Performance Transmission and will somehow be squeezed into the family “Billy goat” (a 1965 Buick Special wagon). Details on this to follow in due time!

    In addition to any overall observations from the big block engine gurus, I have some three questions (so far! )


    1. The only TA Performance high-capacity water pump that seems to fit on this block is TA 1537BHP. Is this going to give me a problem in fitting the engine into a 65 Special engine compartment?
    2. My notes from my last meeting with Orinda Motors are ambiguous with regards to whether or not to get a replacement oil pump. Given that this engine should end up at a nominal 500 hp, should the oil pump be replaced, and if so, should I go all the way to the TA Performance high-performance oil pump assembly (TA 1533A)?
    3. I have waffled between trying to go fuel injection and sticking to a carburetor. My last “zig” was toward a rebuilt QuadraJet. However, when I started to search the web for such a beast, they seem very hard to find for a Buick (yet again ) and it seems for this engine configuration, I might want a specialty carburetor rebuild. The reason I started worrying about this comes from the QuadraJet rebuild products of JET Performance http://www.jetchip.com/Shop/shopdisp...pp=10&catID=36. To make my life really miserable, they have 9 different flavors of the QuadraJet and none fit exactly what this engine will become. The closest is the: Stage 2 | Light Truck Part #: 36002 (bottom of the web page). Are these sorts of carburetor modifications really important or are they more effective at extracting money from unsuspecting customers? Any thoughts about how to obtain to get a really thrifty QuadraJet so that this car can get as decent gas mileage as the 60s technology allows? If I end up buying new components such as a fancy carburetor and new HEI distributor, am I really going to save that much money over a throttle-body fuel-injection system?


    Thanks in advance for your time and wisdom!!

    Cheers, Edouard

    P.S. This engine should be a high-compression (10.25:1) model (according to the Team Buick reference and it is - of course - always right! )
    Caretaker of a 1965 Buick Special "billy goat"!

  2. #2

    Thumbs up The Epic

    Sounds like a good solid plan. Doing everything right the first time is the way to go.

    However as tothe edelbrock manifold, it never showed me very much promise. We had a 455 on the street for several years and have one in our 1953 HENRY J drag car and found great success with an Offenhauser 360 manifold. They come in single or dual 4bbl styles. They are readily available on E BAY for very good prices. Just look on the Offenhauser section.
    make sure you do the oil mods to make this engine much more reliable and live longer.

    I would look into a good set of headers as the biggest flow problem we've encountered is on the exhaust side.

    Other than that, it looks like you've got a winner.

    Good luck and keep us posted.

  3. #3
    I'm kinda surprised at the cam selection. At a *minimum* I would be considering the TA-212, but with the aluminum heads I think something even more radical would be in line. I drove around with the TA-212 for many years, and it is a great combination of tame & WOT power.

    I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish with putting in such a tame camshaft, then topping off the engine with fantastic-flowing heads.

    With those aluminum heads, I would even suggest a custom-designed camshaft. I believe that TA will make one at no extra charge, although you obviously have to wait a few extra weeks. That way, they can *match* your combination to your performance desires, considering all the things like head port flow etc.

    Also, I like the TA SP1 intake manifold. I've used it for a long time with great results.

    The general scheme is to have the block machined locally and have “Buick sensitive” work done by TA Performance.
    If that includes having the short block completely done by TA, I think that's a great idea. However you seem to indicate that some kind of "local" machine shop will be doing the lower end work, which contradicts what you said above...

    -BC

  4. #4
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    Thanks - "method in the madness"

    Dear HenryJ and BC,

    Thanks for your thoughts. Indeed there were a few details that I should have added that explains the choice of the intake manifold and RV cams. So here it comes!

    Quote Originally Posted by henryj11 View Post
    However as to the edelbrock manifold, it never showed me very much promise.
    Well, Edelbrock manifold has great promise in another area important to me - it allows me to close the hood!! Comments here and on the V-8 Buick forum suggested that racing-style intake manifolds raise the carburetor so much that getting the hood closed is dicey.

    In addition, my goal for the car is not racing but as a "born again" SUV (as the great American station wagon once was). The Edelbrock intake manifold provides good performance at lower RPM. So for a tow-vehicle that should work out fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobc455 View Post
    I'm kinda surprised at the cam selection. At a *minimum* I would be considering the TA-212, but with the aluminum heads I think something even more radical would be in line. I drove around with the TA-212 for many years, and it is a great combination of tame & WOT power.
    Well, there are two reasons for the RV style cam: extra low end torque and high fuel economy. The hope is to get the car up into the high-teens for overall gas mileage and maybe as much as 20 mpg on the highway with overdrive. I'm really hoping to take the car out on the open road as I used to, and ya'know, gas isn't getting any cheap nor gas stations becoming more numerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobc455 View Post
    I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish with putting in such a tame camshaft, then topping off the engine with fantastic-flowing heads.
    This is a long story that I explained in its fullest misery here:http://www.teambuick.com/forums/show...94&postcount=6. Basically, trying to stick with the stock heads is likely to cost me almost as much and could lead cracked heads anyway. While I'm not using the aluminum heads in their traditional racing role, I will benefit from better fuel economy and reduced weight. So even for a cruiser, these heads will be a real plus for the car.

    Cheers, Edouard

    P.S. Thanks to Paul Muller's help, I have a likely candidate for the carburetor: the Jet performance rebuild of a QuadraJet #35002 http://www.jetchip.com/Shop/shopdisp...pp=10&catID=36.
    Caretaker of a 1965 Buick Special "billy goat"!

  5. #5
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    I agree with the others, you have come up with an interesting combination.

    Head quality makes the Buick engine. I'd like to back up and look at your overall goal. You want it to be mild, torquey engine. good for towing? I would go to the 212 cam, and drop compression to 9:1. We have a 10.25 compression motor, and could not get quality gas to run on. Best we have here is 90 octane. And if it is true 10.25, not just 10.25 pistons, then it will be tough to drive on pump gas. Racing fuel for us is $9 per gallon and a pain to get to blend.

    If you need a Buick 455, 800cfm carb built, I can build one for you. I do a bunch for our Buick friends, and local folks. I do it as a hobby, with good parts from gessler or ruggles.
    86 GN, all factory options, engine build in progress
    72 Skylark Convertible, 462, TH 400
    72 GSX Clone 464, TH400, 3:42. 10.71 @126mph best

    We build GM carburetors and specialize in custom built Quadrajets

    www.quadrajetpower.com
    mark@quadrajetpower.com

  6. #6
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    Wink Can't get good gas in . . . . Texas?

    Dear carmantx,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this project.

    Quote Originally Posted by carmantx View Post
    Head quality makes the Buick engine. I'd like to back up and look at your overall goal. You want it to be mild, torquey engine. good for towing? I would go to the 212 cam
    Okay question-1: why the 212 cam? Very high on the priority list is fuel economy. If I shift the peak torque upwards 500 rpm or more - that ain't going save me any gas. Especially, when I have a 200-4R transmission with overdrive.


    Quote Originally Posted by carmantx View Post
    and drop compression to 9:1. We have a 10.25 compression motor, and could not get quality gas to run on. Best we have here is 90 octane.
    What!?!?! Ya'mean you can't get good gas in - Texas!!

    Maybe you should try moonshine instead!!

    Seriously, I'm leary about lowering the compression ratio because we did that back in 1979 to the car's existing 300 and it hardly seemed to help at all for fuel economy. Given that the engine will run more efficiently with higher octane, I thought I would at least be no worse off. In California, 91 octane premium seems quite common, so I didn't think this was a problem even across the nation. Is premium vanishing everywhere else? So question-2: should I lower the compression ratio? What's the win with that? It is going to cost me more so there better be something good in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by carmantx View Post
    If you need a Buick 455, 800cfm carb built, I can build one for you.
    Sure, if you guys keep changing the specs on this engine - I'll never get even started on this!!

    Oh well, it's late for a Sunday night - I'll call it a day and look again in the morning.

    Thanks again

    Cheers, Edouard
    Caretaker of a 1965 Buick Special "billy goat"!

  7. #7
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    On the compression deal.

    I don't think it would run well on 91.

    Depends on how you build the motor. Are you planning to zero deck the block? there is a difference in having a 10.25 piston, and having 10.25 compression.

    Just my .02 worth. I think, like the others have mentioned, you will have best power by matching up all of your components.

    And I drink all the moonshine.
    86 GN, all factory options, engine build in progress
    72 Skylark Convertible, 462, TH 400
    72 GSX Clone 464, TH400, 3:42. 10.71 @126mph best

    We build GM carburetors and specialize in custom built Quadrajets

    www.quadrajetpower.com
    mark@quadrajetpower.com

  8. #8
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    We have a 10.25 compression motor, and could not get quality gas to run on. Best we have here is 90 octane. And if it is true 10.25, not just 10.25 pistons, then it will be tough to drive on pump gas. Racing fuel for us is $9 per gallon and a pain to get to blend.

    Are the heads on this engine the stock cast iron with no modifications?
    What distributer and ignition system were you using at the time?

  9. #9
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    Ported edelbrock aluminum heads.
    MSD billet distributor with 6AL box.
    86 GN, all factory options, engine build in progress
    72 Skylark Convertible, 462, TH 400
    72 GSX Clone 464, TH400, 3:42. 10.71 @126mph best

    We build GM carburetors and specialize in custom built Quadrajets

    www.quadrajetpower.com
    mark@quadrajetpower.com

  10. #10
    I can't wait to see how this will run VW Portland New Jetta
    Last edited by Alisa64; 02-19-2011 at 08:29 AM.

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