68 Buick GS California engine question

[MGGTO]

I am new to the forum and looking for some information. I have run across a 1968 GS California that has a 400 in it. Everything I have read says the only engine available in the GS CA was the 350.
Tha VIN numbers checks out as a California edition but how can I find if the 400 engine was original? I have asked the current owner to send me the numbers off the engine.

[bob k. mando]

I have run across a 1968 GS California that has a 400 in it.


how do you 'know' it has a 400? the 68 car would have had a Buick 350 and that is a VERY wide small block. the stroke on the Buick 350 is only .050" less than the stroke on a Buick 455.

count the number of bolts holding the valve covers on. 4 bolts is a 300 or 340, 5 bolts is a big block - 400 / 430 / 455 and 6 bolts can only be the 350.



Tha VIN numbers checks out as a California edition

the California GS VIN codes as a 6 cylinder car. it really doesn't tell you much about the optioned power plant.

http://www.teambuick.com/reference/years/68/68_vin.html





but how can I find if the 400 engine was original?

given that California GS's were optioned cars anyway i suppose it's possible that some enterprising customer could have demanded a post car with a big block in it. but that raises the question, why didn't they just get a normal GS?

regardless, if the last 6 digits of the EIN match the last 6 digits of the VIN it's probably original.

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/view...t_engine_where

[California gs68]

I would guess it is not original Ive never heard of a 68 Califonia with a 400
Its a base model skylark and they came with 350s

[MGGTO]

Thanks for the replys... I will see the car next week and use your information to help me determine its originality. Great Forum and I look forward to getting the GS I always wanted, maybe not this one but soon.

Any additional infromation is appreciated!

[MrWizard]

1st, unbeknownst to most folk, even California cars from GM and other auto makers were available for order on both a short or RPO, as in regular production order as well as an SPO or special parts order, better known as a LONG ORDER FORM production which includes options not listed on the RPO order forms. Many enterprising customers like the original purchaser of my 1977 WS6 4Spd 455 H.O. Pontiac Trans Am were well aware of this, even among California customers. With Buick, as is the case with ALL California cars, restrictions on what could b had ONLY APPLIED TO RPO or SHORT ORDER, sometimes called REGULAR production order by laymen. GS's like all GM hgh perf offerings ALL HAD LONG as well as short order form productions...the mixup is that SPO or Special Parts Order cars often use the same coding for options on short order forms that are not what they stand for on an SPO order form or COPO or Factory Race car production.
Check the vin nuber of ur car closely if an "S" appears within the 1st 5 positions of the vin that "S" refers to a special part option that is coded in the vin number AFTER the S appears. IF the S is the 2cnd position in the vin, then ANYTHING after that has a code that refers to a LONG ORDER form production or Special parts order production and ALL coding after that will refer to something that is a SPECIAL OPTION PART applied to the vehicle. Since the BASE engine for the 67-69 GS Buick is a 400, the california restriction of a 350 ONLY APPLIES to those GS Buicks which were an RPO or REGULAR(SHORT) Order form production. the 1st or 1st and 2cnd position vin numbers refers to the MONTH OF ITS PRODUCTION YEAR IN WHICH SAME WAS FINALED, tho Parts included in the final production line may well have been actually PRODUCED as long as 2 years prior to the final production of the actual vehicle, and a vehicle is yet considered numbers matchin parts so long as the production date of same is within 90 production days of the the cars final production for cases where that part has had to b replaced at some point in time, and said vehicle is numbers matchin as long as the part actually rolled off the assembly line on the vehicle no matter WHEN that part was actually produced.
To have a better understanding of GM, indeed all domestic makers production u must 1st understand what a production and a fiscal year IS, they are not, and at GM they have not been calender years since the start of the 1953 production year when GM released the 1st corvettes.
since then, a Fiscal year begins on July 1 of the year number preceeding the actual production year and ends on June 30 of the actual production year, while the production year actually begins on JULY 15 of the year number preceeding the production year number and ends June 30 of the actual production year in question; since the production year begins after a 15 day "model changeover period" when dies and assembly lines are revamped to begin the production of the NEW MODELS.
This misunderstanding accounts for why so many folk swear up and down that they bought or KNEW someone who bought such things as factory 427 equiped corvettes in 1966. Its very true one could have BOUGHT a brand new Corvette in calender year 1966, but same would been produced AFTER July 15 of that year and been a 1967 model, not a 1966.
The same applies to folk claimin to have bought or KNEW someone who bought a new camaro in 1967 that came factory equiped in RPO with a 396, as is the case with the misnomer vette stories, one COULD have bought a brand new camaro in 1967 that came with a 396 from the factory but same would have been produced AFTER July 15 of that year and been a 1968 model, NOT a 67.
Yet one more Chevy fan claim to DEBUNK, AT NO TIME IN THE HISTORY OF GM could u have had a factory equiped 427 maro or velle in RPO, OR SPO for that matter, any velle or maro that was bought new with a 427 in place by the general public would have been what we now know as "TUNERS" which is something that had the engine DEALER/OWNER installed when new by such concerns as Nickey Chevrolet, Baldwin Chevrolet thru their affiliate " Motion Performance" which was actually located a distance DOWN the street from Baldwin Chevrolet, not IN HOUSE and was an INDEPENDANT CONCERN, NOT actually affiliated with any GM PRODUCTION AT ALL. HOW DO I KNOW THIS? Becaue in 1969 while stationed at Ft. USELESS, errr, Ft Eustis VA i travel to baldwin New York and PURCHASED a 1967 SS 396 375hp car USED that came with a factory remaining warranty. When i scattered the engine and took the car back for warranty replacement i was able to have the car sent down the street to Motion Performance and After paying the difference in price of a 375bhp 396 and a 430bhp L-88 PLUS installation charges i had myself a 1967 SS396 velle that was actually POWERED by an L-88 430bhp engine.
While on the subject of the L-88 427 engine, lets debunk the wives tale about those. 1st, the only year one could have an aluminum headed BBC in any RPO OR SPO GM Vehicle was 1969 and the later half of the 1969 model year production at that. ALL L-88 427 Chevy engines are actually a ZL1 all aluminum 427 who's externals and internals have been transfered from an aluminum 4blt main ZL1 Block into a cast iron 4blt main HP block. The reason for its creation was the alarming failure rate of the ZL1 427's due to head sealing, sleeve and core shift issues that made for an unstable main saddle which lead to bearing failure and head gasket failure at what GM then TERMED " UNACCEPTABLE" rates; as in it cost TOO MUCH in WARANTY repair to continue to b offered in either RPO or SPO production offerings.
Finally lets debunk the COPO car myth, since if everyone who claims to have bought a COPO car new had actually done so, GM would have been out of business YEARS ago since the federal GOV would have fined and taxed em out of existance.
COPO cars, like factory race cars can not b sold to the general public new, in fact factory RACE cars can not b liscened for street use EVER, they all have protracted vins which NO state will license for anything but " OFF ROAD USE"...ever.... COPO stands for CORPORATE PRODUCTION ORDER as in a production for the use of the CORPORATION which produces it, its vin only allows it to b liscensed for on road use by the MANUFACTURER and same must wear a MANUFACTURER's plate when in use on a public road. Such productions MUST B RETAINED FOR EXCLUSIVE factory use in real word testing and development thru at LEAST 1 Model production year, the production year it was produced in to b exact. AFTER that time the car CAN b sold to a CORPORATE EMPLOYEE, as in someone who is NOT HOURLY but SALARY. At THAT time it becomes a privately owned vehicle and can then b sold to anyone the owner chooses to. Failing such a sale after 1 or 2 production years, the only way the factory can recoup the expense of that production is to retain ownership for at least 5 model production years, after which time they may remove fluids, tires and wheels, crush the vehicle whole and recoup the original production cost in the form of a tax write off on the tax levy for the fiscal year that follows the crushing. Any other dispersal of the vehicle was and yet remains ILLEGAL.
SO NO, ur folks nor ur buds folks ever bought new copo cars, even if they were a salaried GM Employee, and, until AFTER Jan 1969, halfway thru the 1969 model year production, no L-88 either. ALSO L-88 as well as ZL1 427's were VETTE only engine options in either RPO or SPO, they were engine options in nothing else as far as factory installation in anything but a COPO or a tuner as afore noted. YET another oft unspoken but nearly universally believed myth is that one could not have a Stage II GS Skylark till the 1970 models, not so, the Stage II option began in the 1968 model year production and applied to a 370hp 400" until the 1970, when the 430 went to 455 and that engine got the option rated at 390hp@5300rpm/526lb/ft@2800rpm. As was ALWAYS the case with a Stage II car this was a dealer/owner installation option which was delivered with the Stage II cam in a Stage 1 engine with BASE heads, while the Stage II Heads, Intake, and a set of custom made tubular exhaust(HEADERS) produced by Flint Michigan's Dave Lunkus at his KUSTOM SPEED EQUIPMENT company under contract for Buick, this because the Stage II Head for the Buick, like the Ram Air V head for the Pontiac V8 has an exhaust port configuration diff than those of the rest of that engine family, which is why the latter came with a special set of cast aluminum exhaust manifolds, tho the Ram Air IV also came with a set of these they were essentually the same as the cast iron Pontiac V8 manifolds cast in aluminum. The Ram Air IV however , like all but the Ram Air V has siamesed center D port exhaust configuration while the Air V head has an oval port exhaust with diviorced center exhaust ports, its also a Tunnel Port head, as in the INTAKE valve stem is encased in a TUBE(tunnel) which goes thru the center of the intake port. The reason for this is that the Air V head uses the BBC 2.19" intake valve and Pontiac's largest exhaust valve offering a 1.81" vs the BBC's 1.88", The Air IV head has the same 2.11 perf intake as all the other Pontiac perf heads but used a intermediate 1.71" exh valve in place of other perf heads 1.66". The Edelbrock Alum heads for the Pontiac V8, tho a near exact alum dupe of the factory cast iron Ram Air IV head uses the same 1.66 exh as does the rest of the Pontiac hgh perf heads.
GM did not, nor did they intend or intimate that they built no more 455 cars after the end of the 1976 model years production, which ended on June 30, 1976. What they actually said was that at the end of the 1974 model year production they would phase out ALL GM v8 engines above 400" in ANY CAR Platform or any truck chasis platform less than 3/4 ton rating begining with the 454 Chevy, and have ceased production of the rest by the start of the 1980 model year production which began on July 15, 1979. and that is exactly what they did.
This because none of the Big cube engines of the time were available with the tech that would reduce emission standards to that set by the EPA to go into effect on Jan 1 1980. Any such production which did NOT meet EPA emmission standards susequent to the Jan 1, 1980 date yet still must b relegated to more than 10% of the concerns TOTAL production figures, thus they must b LIMITED production such as those in over 3/4 ton rate truck chasis rides and or truck/marine/crate. Which remains to this day in EFECT for all but GM's ZO6 which an SPO production and always has been. The ZR1 is ALSO an SPO production but it does not exceed the 400" limit due to the fact that like the ZL1 427, the LS1/2/3 blocks could not sustaiun an acceptable failure rate above 400" and still meet the ZR1 requirement of a minimum 100bhp per litre power production mandate, thus it is housed in the 6.2 litre version of the LS3 engine and had a target production BHP rate of 628bhp which it meets and in most cases exceeds.

[bob k. mando]

Since the BASE engine for the 67-69 GS Buick is a 400, the california restriction of a 350 ONLY APPLIES to those GS Buicks which were an RPO or REGULAR(SHORT) Order form production.


this little bit is slightly confused.

standard Gran Sports were available for sale in California and 'all' of those came with a 400 or at least the 400 was available. there was no 'California restriction' to 350 ( or 340 before 1968 ) cubic inches. as with standard Gran Sports sold all across the country, they are ALL HARDTOPS and base v8 cars. 1968 is one of the years in which the GS had it's own model code so they show a VIN of 4 46 37 for the hardtop GS 400. the GS 350 would be 4 34 37. 37 is the body type code for a hardtop. ( obviously, i'm ignoring the convertibles here )

a "California Gran Sport" is a different animal. the California GS is ALWAYS a 2dr POST car ( never a convertible ) and always VIN codes as a base v6. for this reason, a 68 'California GS' will show a VIN of 4 33 27. 27 is the code for a post body and the 2nd '3' is the Chevy standard coding for a base v6 car. Buick often, but not always, followed Chevy coding practices for VIN coding 8 cyl cars vs 6 cyl cars.

[shantos]

I am new to the forum and looking for some information. I have run across a 1968 GS California that has a 400 in it. Everything I have read says the only engine available in the GS CA was the 350.
Tha VIN numbers checks out as a California edition but how can I find if the 400 engine was original? I have asked the current owner to send me the numbers off the used engine for sale.

you could always check the buick registry as well for numbers to match to for cali options

[MrWizard]

Much of what u posted in reply IS correct, specifically the VIN codes, however, 2 areas are NOT correct, NOT ALL CALI GS 400's were post, ONLY THOSE that were an RPO odrer, an SPO order on the other hand could b had either way, Post or coupe. 2cnd, as i said...with an RPO GS for 68 AND thru the end of the GS Skylark production run, Cali specific RPO cars were limited to the 350" Buick small block V8, BUT, tho not designated as such, this was no shrinking Violet plain Jane 350, it was to the Buick small Block 350 what the 305 H.O. is to the base 305 chevy, IE hotter cam, diff carb metering rods etc...lil stuff to b sure but still things that improved the performance.
I live in the Home and Birthplace of Buick, for the past 2.5 decades, across the street from Buick's largest production line facility ever. I am from a family, both mother and father side, who, like myself were BOPC fanADDICTS. Additionally, I am a graduate of Kettering University, formerly GMI( General Motors Institute as it was yet called when i graduated) renamed in honor of past Buick CEO and founding fellow Charles Kettering, who was also founder and original owner of the DAYTON ELECTRIC COMPANY, DELCO which GM purchase from him 1st to secure the production of what was then the only VIABLE automotive electric starter, ikn fact that was GM's reasoning behind the aquisition of Cadillac/ Lassalle.
These two independant car makers were headed by the same man who created Linclon afterwards, Cadillac for the name of the region in southern France of his heritage, Linclon for the name of his fav president. as You know, Henry Ford senior took THAT. Charles Ketterings heritage is also FRENCH JEWISH, as is that of the Chevrolet Brothers, who at the time WORKED for anti semite Henry Ford but RACED Buicks. Cadillac/Lasalle by way of there common heritage and friendship, had 75% of all Ketterings electric starter production, the remaining 25%, thru the Chevrolet Brothers was consigned to FORD. Ford actually vitually infringed on the patent of the Delco and produced his own vialbe electric starter after GM AQUIRED Cadillac/Lasalle and hired the Chevrolet brothers away to head Buick's new entry level auto and truck chasis production division, Chevrolet/ GMC. the division of these, with Chevrolet remaining under BUICK divisional control, where it yet is today, and GMC being the 1st of only 2 GM divisions that is under direct corporate control, the other would b GMAC Credit.
That said, i have thus been privy to much infomation on BUICK, GM's founding division under which the company was incorporated, and GM production in general that doesn't get much past the Michigan State line.
Long story short, i am in no way confused about anything to do with GM production, at GMI it is required study, indedd the truthful and complete history of all domestic auto production from inception in order to achieve the degree i did, which is "Mechanical Engineering Applications'' with my spec, or MAJOR in applications being AUTOMOTIVE APPLICATIONS.
What i say is not what i think, but what i KNOW for fact, whenever something post is not fact that i KNOW to b fact, i will either prefix and or suffix my statement with that fact.
NO offense meant, and i do not wish to get in a bruhaha about something that is relatively insignificant in the grand scheme of things if ya know what im sayin. I began my driving of my own vehicles as well as wrenching and racing same with auto's the summer of 63, and motorcycles the next summer, 64, my most predominant auto ownerships has been GM, specifically BOPC, with Buick as always my fav power plant, Pontiac as my fav particular brand of car and 2cnd fav power plant, followed by OLDSMOBILE, which includes Cadillac since so long as Cadillac has been a GM division it engines have been a production of OLDSMOBILE and based on as well as IN Oldsmobile blocks AND heads. In fact, originally Hydramatic was a part of OLDSMOBILE, which was and remains GM's dedicated research and development division, it was morphed and under went a name change to Saturn, as an in house dedicated division to compete with the foriegn auto manufacturers and end GM's long standin practice of alliance and associatetive production with such companies as Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi ETC. It has now undergone yet another name change since the demise of the Saturn name and is now just CADILLAC, tho the BOP and now BOC moniker yet appears on many GM Production facilities to this day... while the public at large swears up and down that OLDSMOBILE IS NO MORE. Only 1 GM facility ever had the Saturn logo anywhere, that was the Springhill TN facility which was final production ONLY, no production parts were ever produced there, same was always produced where Oldsmobile parts and production predominantly always has been, Lansing MI and Janeville WS. as a OTR O/O Trucker i ran many a GM freight load to and from many a GM facility, before and after my attendance at GMI, and my attendance at GMI was for my own personal edification, i have never, nor did i ever intend to actually WORK in the field. I got the degree simply to make myself a more intelligent, read that CRAFTY, veteran drag racer, as always, with predominantly BOPC motivation. The fact that my Buick powered street rod is a BMW should give some indication of how dedicated i am as a BOPC fanADDICT.
Thanx However for the reply, i feel that anyone can learn SOMETHING for and or from ANYONE dso long as they have an open mind and pay attention, by that i say that i expect that even about my fav, many of u can TEACH me something, no one knows it all, which is a rule i am no exception to.

[68 GS california]

I have an all original 68 gs California. And iv done tons of reserch on these cars and I'll tell you that they were only available with a 280hp 350 4 barrel and a super turbine 300 2 speed trans(68 only) and a chrome air cleaner lid. And u can make sure the car us a California if the first 5 numbers in the vin are 43327. The engine code for the correct 350 is PP. That's located on the drivers side of the block where the heads bolt. U may see it u may not. It's not that easy to see. These cars are rare. They made 4,831 gs California's in 68. Hope this helps alittle.

[MrWizard]

It doesn't matter what u have or how much research u have done on it, the facts that i stated about it remain, and i live in the home and Birthplace of the parent and founding division of GM, BUICK as well as GM itself and 2 of the but 3 divisions of GM that it didn't get by aquirement but by creation, Chevrolet and GMC; not to mention i graduated from GMI as in General Motors Institute, now renamed Kettering University in honor of it CHIEF FOUNDING FELLOW, Charles Kettering, he who is the founder of DAYTON ELECTRIC COMPANY of DAYTON, OHIO, which became DELCO once aquired from him by GM in return for the CEO position at Buick MTR Division following the leaveing of Walter Chrysler to start his own company from that position. AS a Mechanicl Engineer, at the time refered to as JOURNEYMAN PLUMBERS, further incentive was Chief Founding Fellow, his idea in fact, of GMI, an Institute who's mantra was to train qualified Engineers and Businessmen for placement in the auto industry. The Information i relayed in previous posts is info that i HAD TO TEST ON AND PASS same in order to achieve my degree; in point of fact my 5th year thesis at GMI was on GM limited productions, as in SPO and COPO productions. Thus, i KNOW there is no way u can access the total option list for any GM or any other domestic auto production that was produced BEFORE 1982, and that is JUST IN REFERENCE TO RPO, or regular production orders or short order form productions, let alone those of SPO or COPO production option lists, and u can't research option lists for anything that u do not have a vin # to. Thus unless u HAVE a SPO California GS u have no way to access what options were available for same, reason being u have no vin# from one with which to do so.
As I learned both during the achievement of my 1st collegiate degree( Bachelor Of Applied Science Business Management and Adminstration), as well as the achievement of my 2cnd degree (Mechanical Engineering Applications), one must learn to distinghish the difference between what one thinks and believes and what one actually KNOWS. One only KNOWS that which they have actual experience of, as in HANDS ON, at the very least hands on examination. Otherwise all u know about it is what you think and believe. That said, in order for you to KNOW anything about an SPO or COPO production of anything YOU would have had to actually handle and examine same. Saying that no such car as what i described ever existed and ALL Cali GS 400's were like YOURS, with only the options YOURS had or was avaialble with would require that u had handled and examined every Cali GS400 ever produced and you haven't, not even the Individual folk who worked on various assembly lines building such cars have done that. YOU CERTAINLY HAVE NOT. I DO NOT KNOW these things, this is what i believe based on what i was taught while attending the University founded by and for the company that produced them, tho i KNOW for a fact that YOU CAN'T access OPTION LISTS complete for SPO or COPO productions unless u have a VIN from one with which to enter into ur search panel when prompted, i know this because i have tried to do so WITHOUT ONE.
I get the same kind of supposedly KNOW IT ALL RESPONSE to the authenticity of my 1977 455 H.O. 4spd WS6 Pontiac Trans Am, built in its entirety in FEBUARY of 1977. It's body shell was produced in Lordstown(Youngstown) OH and shipped on Feb 9,77 to Pontiac SPO west in Mena, OK, where it was finaled on Feb 12, 77, then shipped on Feb 13, 77 to Royal Oak Pontiac in Royal Oak, MI arriving on Feb 17, 1977 which was a FRIDAY, and delivery was taken by its original and only other owner on Monday Feb 19, 1977. The block casting numbers indicate same was cast in November of 76 at Saginaw Grey Iron in Saginaw Michigan as was the head that was on the left side of the engine when i got the car while the head on the right side has casting numbers that indicate it was produced in dec of 1976 in the same place. The 1977 model year production at GM began on July 15, 1976 and the fiscal year for that production year on July 1, 1976, both ended on June 30, 1977. Thus produced in its entirety AFTER JULY 15, 1976 the car is indeed a 1977 and it came with a 7.5L 75Upnt engine( which is exactly how its printed on the BUILD PLATE which corresponds to the VIN plate on the car numbers matching), which is the coding for indeed a 455 H.O. Pontiac engine. 4blt main, super duty rod, nodular iron crank, 7.9-1 mechanical comp via a set of 114CC 6H designated Pontiac D-Port Heads, the same short block that with 87cc Pontiac heads comprised the famed 455 S.D. which the 455 H.O replaced as of January 1 1974, not to b confused with the 70-72 HO455 which in a GTO Judge had the Ram Air 4 Head rated at 390bhp/500lbft tq, while all other placements of same were Ram Air III 82CC heads and rated at 360bhp/485lbft TQ. My 4550 H.O. was rated at 290bhp/435lbft TQ, while the few 74 model 455 S.D. productions were rated at 315bhp/460lb/ft TQ and the 73's at 345bhp/485lbft TQ. The 74 455 S.D. lost 30bhp and the 455 H.O. was down another 25bhp.
My car yet has its vin plate and number's matching build plate as well as the numbers matching engine in it, but for the original exhaust manifolds, carb and the metal removed from the roof of the car to install a custom sunroof which 1st and 2cnd gen Trans Ams were never avaialble with(T-Tops or solid roof only), i yet have all numbers matching parts to the car, including the original camshaft and valve train as well as the pistons, 4spd transmission, push rods, Valve covers and 3.42 ring&pinion gear set, tho none of these items are yet in or on the car. Still, even from so called Pontiac officianados who have SEEN THE VIN AND BUILD PLATES on the car i get swears before beans and bacon that no such car was ever produced by the factory, to which my reply is the same one that i just gave u about the SPO Cali GS400 cars, WHY WOULD GM say that it WAS produced when it fact it wasn't so much as to place a vin plate and build plate on the car that says it WAS factory produced and when as well as where, what would b the factory's incentive to do that??? What would b GMI's incentive to teach its students in required courses of study that SPO Cali GS Skylark cars CAME with a 400 rather than a 350 Buick?????
From here all may believe as they have always been able to, whatever they choose about this or any other production from the US or any other place in the world. But THIS particular belief that YOU post will YET NOT be anything other than what YOU believe, after all, u can not KNOW something that isn't so, other than to know it isn't so, if u BELIEVE it then u do so because u do not KNOW any better.
BTW, i have been buyin, building and drag racin BOP GM products since the early 60's and my fav motors have always been V8 Buick, especially the 2cnd gen series after the demise of the nailheads. So much am i into Buick engines its what powers my 1988 BMW 327A Post Coupe street/strip drag car. When i began with BOP products drag racin, most of ur performance parts u had to get directly from Buick since the after market was not only severly lackin in same but far too expensive for my budgetary restraints so how to find what was available for performance for same from the factory and what was not was always a primary focus of mine, a diligent and dedicated focus in fact, even to this very day, hell, for the past 25+ years i have lived directly across the street from the largest assembly facility Buick or GM for that matter ever had, many of my closets friends as well as some relatives are retired Buick/GM salaried as well as hourly employees. As are MOST of my neighbors.