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Thread: Information Exchange for Building Street Supercharged 455

  1. #11
    To Frankenbuick: June 12, 2010

    Sorry to take a week off before replying ... family activities in June (two high school graduations) took some time. Your comments are good, of course, but I perhaps waited a little too long to post my original request for info. I've attached a photo showing that the short block and heads have been fully assembled. What you suggest would require a full tear down and rebuild, with new parts purchased. My fault, not yours! I should have posted my original request for info at least a month earlier. Some of your guidelines look difficult to achieve. I measured the piston as sitting down 0.054 inch below the deck. I don't see how it is would be possible to obtain a 0.060 quench height and still keep the CR near 8:1 (which all of the blower guys tell me is a good target). I needed a 0.051 head gasket thickness to keep the CR down. Your guidelines for the DCR are no doubt good ones, but I relied on discussions with the TA cam guys to come up with a cam and an 8:1 CR combination that would be compatible with a roots blower. I apologize for locking in some of the hardware such as the pistons, cam, etc, before asking for advice! I do appreciate the advice from everyone however. My needs at this stage are expert thoughts on assembly of the blower components, assembly and installation of the full complement of peripherals (such as power steering, AC, alternator, fan), and for installation of this 455 engine in my 84 Park Avenue. For example, are there any problems to be anticipated in bolting to the existing 200-4R trans using the 200-4R converter and the 455 flex plate, can I run a normal fan and shroud or will I need to convert to electric fans? Do you have to retighten the multi-layer steel head gaskets after initial engine warm up? Should I put a zinc additive in the oil? Will the headers clear the steering column? There are probably some experts out there who have done all of this, and I could benefit from your experience. Thanks. Dave Harrington
    Last edited by harringtondl; 10-01-2010 at 04:08 PM.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Waring, Tx
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    You have a lot of questions here, and I may can answer one. We run valvoline racing oil and don't need a zinc additive.
    86 GN, all factory options, engine build in progress
    72 Skylark Convertible, 462, TH 400
    72 GSX Clone 464, TH400, 3:42. 10.71 @126mph best

    We build GM carburetors and specialize in custom built Quadrajets

    www.quadrajetpower.com
    mark@quadrajetpower.com

  3. #13
    To: Carmantx Thanks for the input on the oil. Yes, I have a lot of practical questions. Every day seems to have a new question. In some ways a street cruise engine requires more parts and aggravation than a race engine. If you want an alternator, PS, AC and fan on a supercharged engine there will be lots of pulleys on the crank, lots of interference and lots of problems to solve. I'm trying not to pour another $2k into it by avoiding a serpentine belt system and by using my perfectly good R4 AC compressor instead of buying a new A6 that went with the original 455 engine. That means a lot of bracket fabrication. I have a higher cowl scoop on my 84 Buick, but even that may not clear the carbs on top of the 8.71 blower. I'd like to make the motor set down as low as possible. Any tricks out there for that? I'm attaching a few photos of interest, showing the two cars I've restored so far ... a 1966 Chrysler New Yorker and an 84 Buick Park Avenue. Also one of my workshop and the shorty headers for the 455 engine.
    Dave Harrington
    Last edited by harringtondl; 10-04-2010 at 04:21 PM.

  4. #14

    Status Update on Supercharged 455 Project

    Hello to all interested forum members. Sorry to take 6 weeks off without a post, but as you will see in the status photos I have been working hard every day to complete this project. July was the main effort. The status is that the supercharged 1970 Stage 1 455 engine has been completed. I have a tight deadline which is the big "Woodward Dream Cruise" that is held in August each year in Detroit. I want to get the car running and have it in the cruise. I'll outline some of the minor difficulties (no major ones thank goodness). Two photos showing the completed engine are attached. The 8.71 blower kit was received and two Edelbrock 750 carbs and the complex throttle linkage were installed. Those difficulties will also be noted. A photo of the final setup is attached. The tired old 307 engine was removed at the PFE Racing shop near my home, and 4 weeks solid of 10-hour days were spent on cleaning and beautifying the engine compartment. Also, much time was spent on the complex 84 Buick wiring harness with a shop manual, sorting through the myriad of connectors to determine which were needed and which were not. Remember, the 84 Buick was an emission connector nightmare. The programmable MSD 6AL-2 ignition system with billet distributor was installed, and that wiring was blended with the 84 Park Avenue harness wiring. This system monitors the supercharger boost through a 2-bar map sensor and controls the spark timing to whatever curve you program. A photo of the finished engine compartment, frame, a-frames, MSD ignition system and steering linkage is attached. Two days ago the new 455 engine was dropped into the 84 Buick engine compartment for the first time. Guess what ... it fits! There were no major problems. The shorty headers clear on both sides (not by much but they clear). The engine bolts to the 200-R4 trans, thus avoiding the need for a new trans, spline, cross member and driveshaft. It looks like even the fan will just barely fit it with its 3-inch extension to clear the blower belt. The engine is not in yet ... it was taken back out to drill the marked motor mount holes in the frame. Also, the 8.71 supercharger assembly has not yet been placed on the intake manifold. That will come after the engine has been installed.

    To me the main value of these forums (in addition to getting good advice) is to read about problems, potential problems and how they were solved or avoided. In the next couple of posts I will list the things that I encountered. It may save someone else some time and aggravation.
    Dave Harrington
    Troy, Michigan
    Last edited by harringtondl; 10-04-2010 at 04:25 PM.

  5. #15

    Supercharged 455 Installation Completed

    To All Interested Members 9-30-10

    The status as of the end of September is that the supercharged 1970 Stage 1 Buick 455 engine was successfully installed in the 84 Buick Park Avenue. For those members who did not see the earlier threads from 6-7 months ago, it has an 8:71 roots blower and TA cam, pistons and valves. Some photos are attached to the end of this posting. I have been driving it for a few weeks at the end of summer here in Michigan. In about 6 weeks the first snow will hit and it will be retired into the garage until next April. I had it in three car shows and it draws a lot of interest and questions. There are not too many cars running 8:71 blowers (most are 6:71s), and even fewer of those are Buick engines. Therefore it attracts a lot of interest at car shows, or anywhere for that matter, even gas stations, especially from Buick fans.
    I have about 600 miles on it, so it is just about broken in. It drives fairly well, although the stock 200-4R transmission is deteriorating rapidly. This is not unexpected, as I mentioned in a much earlier post that I considered it a throwaway trans that made the original installation much easier and quicker, with a direct bolt-up being possible. It started slipping in 2nd on full throttle bursts, and is now slipping in both 2nd and 3rd. I just got off the phone with Art Carr in California and over the winter I will probably go for his top-of-the-line 22 trans (for 700 HP) with his 2800 stall converter. This will be a necessary winter project. As of right now you cannot really go to high rpm and high boost because of associted trans slippage. I could a few weeks ago however, and it was impressive for a big, heavy car. I haven't gone over 6-7 pounds of boost yet because of the trans and the fact that the engine isn't quite broken in yet. This is a preliminary report.

    As for the installation, it went fairly well, and I will report some problems that had to be solved. This may help some other members out there who may be installing 455 engines, blowers or both. First, even with compact shorty headers from TA, the headers almost touch the frame on both sides. In fact, they did touch on the passenger side and had to be flattened a little to clear. Second, the passenger-side brake line touched the header and had to be run through the frame instead of over the frame. Fortunately there was a frame hole already there that was used. Third, the stock radiator and clutch fan was used at first, with a 3-inch fan extension to clear the blower belt. My advice ... don't even plan on doing this. It fit (barely) but it would not cool the engine. The engine ran at 230 degrees and would overheat at idle. Then the entire cantilevered clutch-fan mass broke off during an accel and went through the radiator. The entire system was scrapped for a double core aluminum radiator and Flex-a-Lite Extreme electric fan (3300 CFM). This works like a champ and keeps the engine at 185 degrees. The cost of the engine project so far is about $13.4 K, including the cost of the 1970 buick 455 starting engine and $1.2 K for the custom radiator and fan. I am looking at another $3k this winter to upgrade the transmission and converter. I got some good deals on services like engine and exhaust installation, and did a lot of the work myself such as cleaning, rewiring and painting the frame and engine compartment, so I doubt that this type of project could be done much cheaper.
    There is a lot of performance optimization to be done over the winter and next spring. I am still running on the MSD centrifugal advance of the distributor, and have not yet programmed the MSD 6AL-2 ignition module for custom advance curves. This will also be a winter project, as the mechanical advance has to be locked out and the ignition module hooked to my computer for installing the custom advance curves. Actually they are "retard" curves from some advance position of the distributor. The Edelbrock 750 carbs have to be tuned also, in conjunction with a chassis dyno once the trans is upgraded.
    If any interested member has questions, suggestions or comments, please post them.
    My best regards to fellow Buick fans,
    Dave Harrington
    Troy, Michigan

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Waring, Tx
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    Congratulations on getting it all together. That's a bunch of work.

    I understand the frustration with the 200 4R. Tyler just broke his 3rd one in his GN and is currently building a turbo 400 for it.
    86 GN, all factory options, engine build in progress
    72 Skylark Convertible, 462, TH 400
    72 GSX Clone 464, TH400, 3:42. 10.71 @126mph best

    We build GM carburetors and specialize in custom built Quadrajets

    www.quadrajetpower.com
    mark@quadrajetpower.com

  7. #17
    Hey! I'm not sure how I missed this post before.

    That's a great project - in the 20+ years I've been into the 455's, I only know of two people that run Roots blowers on these cars. And I think that one of them is a 4-71 or 6-71.

    With regards to cooling, I used to have lots of cooling issues, but eventually I switched to a custom-made 5-core radiator. I went with aluminum for a while, but that developed some leaks and couldn't be repaired, so I switched back to copper-brass. However I don't have A/C so I can't say whether a 5-core would fit. I also made mine 1" wider to prevent air from going around the radiator, it all goes through the radiator now. With my 160-degree thermostat, the engine now runs too cold IMO (usually around 170).

    I actually have a supercharger in my garage, that was destined for my 455. However due to financial issues (got laid off, etc.) that's been on hold for a year now... (sad face)

    If/when I do get around to installing the blower, I have no intention of exceeding 6 PSI, and In intend to start around 4 PSI. For my 455, I did some rough calculations and every PSI is worth about 25HP, so 6 PSI would be 150HP over what I run now (which is already pretty darned fast). Although I have a very stout engine (block girdle, crower rods, JE pistons, etc.) boost can drive up your intake temperature quickly and this leads to detonation. If I remember correctly, a 6 PSI boost will drive up intake charge by about 100 degrees, excluding conduction/convection heating.

    My problem right now is the brackets & pulley, otherwise I'd have that baby on there already! Glad to see your project is going so well.

    -Bob C.

  8. #18
    And with regards to transmissions, I love the idea of a 200-4R. However when I re-doing my drivetrain about 10-15 years ago, there was nobody at the time who could build a 200-4R to handle my kind of torque. So I went with a 2.56 12-bolt posi and a 3-speed TH400 with a switch-pitch converter. For a street-driven machine (last year I put 10k miles on my car), I consider that to be the perfect combo.

    Don't worry, with a 455 I still have too much torque in 1st gear. (Granted, I don't run slicks or a racing suspension...) And there's something cool about running 1st gear to 65 MPH.

    -Bob C.

  9. #19
    I also made mine 1" wider to prevent air from going around the radiator, it all goes through the radiator now.


    if you wanted to get really hard core you could fabricate a shroud for the front side of the radiator.

    or you could buy on a them there fancy flex shrouds ( think - modified lawnmower catch bag ) from the circle track guys:
    https://www.lefthanderchassis.com/v2...dgroup=2512210
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
    H.H. Goddard, Human Efficiency (1920)

  10. #20
    To: Carmantx, bobc455, bob k. mando and others

    Thanks for the comments. Yes, a 455 with an 8:71 blower is fairly uncommon. I found that out when I tried to buy the blower intake manifold. For bobc455, keep the faith on your blower installation. You didn't say if it was a 4:71 or 6:71, but the nose drive assembly, belt adjuster and belt will be about $700. Also plan on about $190 for the complex throttle linkage assembly. Add about $60 if you want a progressive linkage for two four barrels. I would recommend that. As for boost on my system, I am shooting for about 9-10 psig max at 6000 rpm. Right now I am getting about 5-6 psig at 5400. I won't go over 5400 until I get it broken in. I spoke to Don Hampton at Hampton Blowers and he will just supply a new drive pulley to me this winter to tweak up my boost a little. In defense of running 9-10 psig boost, I'm only at 8:1 CR (by careful design), and I have the MSD option of spark retard with boost, with a 2 bar MAP sensor to reduce detonation (when I program it). I inserted a couple of close-ups of the engine and blower installation that the forum members might enjoy.
    Regarding the cooling discussions, there is some debate on whether to use a thermostat or take it out. I'm running a 165 degree thermostat with my aluminum radiator and electric fan because the Flex-a-Lite people recommended it. I don't drive my Park Avenue between November and April, so I'm talking about summer cooling only. (I have no heater hoses hooked up). What do you gentlemen think ... thermostat or not?
    As for transmissions, it is indeed confusing, anf its my biggest current problem to be addressed in the next few months. There is much discussion on the internet regarding the relative "strengths" of the 200, 400, 700 and 460 transmissions. There seems to be much disagreement. I had a long talk with Art Carr last week and he recommends the 200-4R (he sells them all). He said the 200 can be made just as strong as the others if you build them right. I really hate the multifunction TV cable system and would like to get away from it to be able to independently set shift points, but Art says you have to have the TV cable with the 200 trans (no upgrade kit gets rid of it). I am also not an expert on lockup versus non-lockup, and the ideal stall speed to get. I would appreciate any input from forum members on this.

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