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Thread: Information Exchange for Building Street Supercharged 455

  1. #1

    Information Exchange for Building Street Supercharged 455

    I would like to exchange information and tips from knowledgeable people related to my current project of building a supercharged 455 for street/cruise (not racing). The 1970 Stage 1 block is now starting to be assembled. About $7800 in parts have been obtained to date, mostly from TA, Summit and Hampton Blowers. It has been bored to 470 cubic inches and will be an 8:71 blower application with 8.1/1 TA forged pistons and a TA supercharger cam. Ignition will be full MSD (programmable). Fuel will be two Edelbrock 750s. Two photos of the current assembly status are attached. It will replace the tired old stock 5-liter engine in my fully restored 84 Park Avenue. I will have a number of practical questions in this thread on engine assembly, installation in an 84 Park avenue, transmission mating and on engine tuning. Any info and suggestions in any of these areas would be appreciated. This is my first supercharged engine, so I am learning.
    Dave Harrington
    Troy, Michigan
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by harringtondl; 10-01-2010 at 04:05 PM.

  2. #2
    who's doing your motor?

    and i'm sure you know about all of the oil mods, right?
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
    H.H. Goddard, Human Efficiency (1920)

  3. #3
    Hello Bob: I'm building it jointly with Tim Parkham of Marine City, MI. He is a fellow retiree of GM Engineering and rebuilt dyno engines for 35 years before he retired. He has some nice machinery in his engine shop, and it's being assembled out there. Yes, I have Steven Dove's book, and we put in some of his suggestions (and are still putting some of them in).

    I have a T400 trans, but the target car already has a freshly rebuilt 200-4R trans. I could switch to the T400, but it would be more work. I'm thinking that the 200 trans is a "throwaway", and that it would make the engine installation project MUCH easier, with no modifications required to crossmember, spline, driveshaft or shift linkage. If the engine trashes it at some point it would be no big deal. I see conflicting info on the internet about whether the T400 (3-speed) is really stronger than the 200. There are even some people upgrading from the T400 to the 200! I also read conflicting info about whether the 455 engine will "bolt right in" to the 1984 Buick Park Avenue, which comes stock with a 307 V-8. Some imply "yes" and some say "no". I guess I'll find out later this summer.
    Dave Harrington

  4. #4
    I also read conflicting info about whether the 455 engine will "bolt right in" to the 1984 Buick Park Avenue, which comes stock with a 307 V-8.

    the 307 is ( as i'm sure you know ) an Oldsmobile design. so most of your engine wiring harness is going to be backwards from what the Buick wants.

    i would also expect new frame pads, engine mounts and fan shroud.

    it should bolt up to the 200r4, though.




    There are even some people upgrading from the T400 to the 200!


    i think most of those "upgrades" are to get the OD gear and extra short 1st. and, of course, the lesser rotating mass doesn't hurt performance at all.

    it is certainly true that the 200s got a lot more durable after hot rodders started looking at ways to make them stand up to more power.



    Yes, I have Steven Dove's book


    there's nothing wrong with Dove's book, but it's a little outdated. there are several good on line articles and Tri-Shield has an excellent photo FAQ on it.

    since you're already dealing with TA, they should also be able to answer any specific questions you might have.


    http://www.teambuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18648
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
    H.H. Goddard, Human Efficiency (1920)

  5. #5
    The 200 trans would be great if you have it beefed up a little. It also depends on your rear gear ratio (the rear will also need to be stronger then stock).

    TA should have the frame pads and headers to drop the 455 in your car.

    You may want to increase the compression depending on the cam. You will have poor performance when not in boost if your DCR falls below 7.5:1. There is a good article on it and a calculator here: http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html. The build for my supercharged Cobra uses a 9.75:1 static compression to give me a 7.75:1 DCR with the lagrer cams. Stock it used a 8.5:1 static compression that produced a 7.75:1 DCR with smaller cams.

    The same goes for my turbocharged WRX. It will use 9.3:1 static compression in the new build with larger cams. It had 8.2:1 in stock form, but the DCR will remain the same with the new cams and higher static compression ratio.
    Steve B.



    67 GS 525 Buick Stage IV
    66 GS Convertible
    65 GS HT
    63 Riv
    02 Subaru WRX Turbo
    03 Ford Cobra Convertible (Factory Supercharged)

  6. #6
    To Bob and Frankenbuick: June 2, 2010

    Thanks for the input and tips. This is exactly what I had in mine when I made the Post. I'll have lots of small questions as I proceed with assembly and installation over the summer of 2010. Such input will save me time in tracking down answers.

    Bob; I read in one place on the internet that you need new 455 engine mounts to put the 455 in my car, and in another that the stock 307 mounts will work directly. I bought new mounts for both from Rock Auto because they were so cheap ($6 each) compared to the other costs of the project, so I am ready for that I believe. I don't plan to do anything to my newly rebuilt 200 trans, just bolt the 455 to it and see where the engine sets. The 455 doesn't appear to be much larger physically than the 307 V-8, plus the 84 Park Avenue is the last of the big old rear-wheel-drive boats, with a huge engine compartment. I won't have the 8:71 blower kit for another three weeks, but I'll likely have to cut the hood. I'd like to avoid it, but probably can't. That comes later ...my immediate concern is the engine assembly.

    Frankenbuick: I reviewed the DCR info that you flagged. Very interesting, but for a supercharged engine it would seem that the boost level and the detonation tendency are the main factors. I only chose 8.1: 1 (for the static CR) when I got the pistons because that is what Don Hampton of Hampton Blowers recommended for a street machine running gasoline. I got steel multilayer head gaskets of 0.051 thickness specifically to yield 8.1 to 1.

    Here are two simple questions for starters that you can waste hours chasing down ... I have the firing order, but which side (drivers front or passenger front) is the number #1 cylinder on a 455? I see different indications on the internet. It looks like the Nailhead convention is different from the 350, etc. I have the MSD ignition components, and am starting to wire them, but I want to make sure I'm using the correct cylinder number convention for the 455. Also, my 84 Buick has a fuel return line to the tank. For the new TA performance pump should I hook up this return line or block it off?

    Dave Harrington; Troy, MI

  7. #7
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    driver side front is number 1 cylinder.

    Turbo 400 built good will be more bullet proof for the power you might put out. We have broke 2 200 4R's in the grand national with the turbo 6. One broke the front pump. New one built is on the way to us now and hopefully it will hold together. They are very expensive. 400's are cheap in comparison.

    Good luck.
    86 GN, all factory options, engine build in progress
    72 Skylark Convertible, 462, TH 400
    72 GSX Clone 464, TH400, 3:42. 10.71 @126mph best

    We build GM carburetors and specialize in custom built Quadrajets

    www.quadrajetpower.com
    mark@quadrajetpower.com

  8. #8
    It looks like the Nailhead convention is different from the 350, etc.


    it is. and for the same reason that the Pontiac convention is different than Buick, Chevy, Olds, etc.

    in a V engine in which crank throws are shared between more than one cylinder, one cylinder head MUST be further forward ( towards the harmonic balancer ) than the other. you can't position them directly across from each other because there physically wouldn't be space for the rods to fit on the crank throw.

    in Pontiacs and Nails, the passenger side cylinder bank is the one shifted forward. in pretty much all the rest of GM's engine designs, it's the driver's side bank which is forward.

    the #1 cylinder is numbered such because it is the cylinder furthest towards the front of the car.

    the block diagrams in the firing order reference sheet don't reflect this, but it's easy enough to see when you're looking at the physical engine ... once you know to look for it.

    http://www.teambuick.com/reference/w...ine_firing.php



    The 455 doesn't appear to be much larger physically than the 307 V-8


    the Olds 307 shares deck height with the Olds 350. and it shares length, front to back, with the Olds 455. so it's not a very "small", small block.

    the Buick 455 is the shortest stroke, biggest bore of the GM 7.5L engines. in fact, the stroke on the Buick 455 is only .050" longer than the stroke on the Buick 350. needless to say, the uninformed often confuse a Buick tall deck small block ( 350, 340 ) for a Buick 455.



    and in another that the stock 307 mounts will work directly.

    doubt it. if you had a Buick 231v6 and you wanted to swap in a Buick 350, yeah, that's a direct swap. because those engines are from the same design family.

    the Buick 231 is a Buick 300v8 ( 1964-67 ) with two cylinders knocked off and bored out to the cylinder dimensions of the Buick 350.

    and yes, long, long ago, there WAS a Buick 225v6. 300 * .75 == 225
    The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
    Vladimir Lenin

    Government schooling is about "the perfect organization of the hive."
    H.H. Goddard, Human Efficiency (1920)

  9. #9
    Thanks to Bob, Frankenbuick and Carmantx for good input. Here is the engine build status as of June 4 ... Two photos are attached below ...455 block bored to 470, 8.1 to 1 TA pistons and moly rings filed and installed, block & heads milled 0.005 inch, crank, rods & bearings installed. grooved cam bearings installed, new SS Stage 1 valves and springs installed, new freeze plug set installed. Ready to install TA-288-HH-14 cam and heads using multi-layer steel gaskets. Don Hampton of Hampton Blowers said yesterday that the 455 Buick blower intake is ready to be shipped. The 8:71 blower itself is a new one, and is being assembled (another 15-18 days).

    ANOTHER ROUND OF QUESTIONS FOR THE EXPERTS: After some discussion, we did not put seals on the exhaust valves. It didn't come with any originally, and we could see no great reason to add them. Do you guys concur? We have the new TA performance fuel pump in hand (with return line machined). Should we use this tank return port or block it off? I have the MSD #8217 billet distributor in hand, along with the MSD low-impedance spark plug wires and E3-45 plugs. We are planning to get the MSD-6AL-2 Programmable ignition module. Any comments on this choice before we do it?

    Intent of this engine: to be a cruise/show car application (no racing). Therefore it will have all of the accessories (power steering, alternator, heater, AC, fan) and will need all of the pulleys and brackets. My 1970 455 block did not come with any of that. I don't want to spend more big bucks on a full serpentine belt system, but will likely go with just chromed stock pulleys and belts. Anyone know a good source for such pulleys and brackets, or for a rebuilt or chromed A6 AC compressor? Final question in this set ... We have a flex plate from the engine for a T400 trans, but also will have the flex plate from the intended 200-4R trans. Which should I use? Are they identical? One is 1970 vintage and the other is 1984 vintage.
    Dave Harrington
    Last edited by harringtondl; 10-04-2010 at 04:21 PM.

  10. #10
    Dave,

    I see several issues with your build. I calculated your DCR at 6.0:1 with 8.1:1 static compression and the intake L/C at 110* (4* advanced). I think this will make for poor cruising and drivability (in contrast to your goals).

    I would also worry that the thickness of the head gasket could cause far more detonation then any possible by higher compression. Your quench distance should be .060" at most (best at .035"). I think your pistons may still be .050 down the hole with gasket of .050. This makes for a .100" quench distance. This will increase detonation tremdously.

    I would also be concerned over moly rings in a SC application. They are prone to detonation damage and the molly can melt out of the ring under the extreme pressure and heat caused by supercharging. Most of the Turbo and SC guys are going with a chrome top ring and cast second ring. I know it would mean a different hone and new rings, but ..........................

    Also, you need a 455 flexplate. These are extermally balanced engines, and the flexplate needs to be balanced to the rest of the rotating assembly. Did you balance your rotating assembly? Your new pistons are not the same weight as stock. You will need to have the flexplate balanced to your pistons, rings, rods and front balancer. There are some better aftermarket flexplates that are availible and SFI rated. I would use an aftermarket front balancer that can take the stress of a SC if you do not already have one. The stock one was not built for a SC requiring up to 100 HP to drive. They were thinking alternator, PS pump and AC using 15-20 HP combined.

    I am trying to help here! It may not seem like it, but my 30 years of experience with the 455, 7 years of modifying and tuning my factory SC Cobra and the last two years modifying my hybrid turbo Subaru tell me you have some issues with your engine. It could use a little attention now rater then a lot later!
    Last edited by Dr. Frankenbuick; 06-05-2010 at 06:44 AM.
    Steve B.



    67 GS 525 Buick Stage IV
    66 GS Convertible
    65 GS HT
    63 Riv
    02 Subaru WRX Turbo
    03 Ford Cobra Convertible (Factory Supercharged)

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