please help! 430 first start

**major_mitt** · 02-10-2009, 01:20 PM

I think my buick hates me....

I finally managed to start my fully rebuilt 430 the other day and found a number of problems that seem to be unexplainable.

It gets really hot really fast for no apparent reason, timing is set at about 8 degrees as it was my mechanic who started it set it at and that's what he recommended ( it starts easy and runs nice so this is confusing)

Oil pressure is pathetic, It gets to about 25psi at 2500rpm which is where I broke the cam in. But at idle its sometimes less than 10psi. This also makes no sense as I did all the oil mods recommended, larger pick up, bored out passages, oil pump backing plate, adjustable regulator. The passenger side head is getting heaps of oil while the drivers side is not which leads to another problem

Large quantities of smoke out the passenger side bank, I would not have thought it could do a ring being so fresh ( rings still havn't been run in yet) its almost like its taking in lots of oil through the pcv valve which is new. PCV used to be in the rear of the intake manifold but i blocked that up and transfered it to the passenger side rocker cover. This seems to be the source of the smoke, is it not legitmate to have the pcv in the rocker cover?

Sorry for asking so many questions but I dont no what to do. With so much money invested in it I would hate to find out its toast before even touching the road...

**bobc455** · 02-10-2009, 01:50 PM

Getting really hot? Need to know more. During cam break-in, the engine will generate GOBS of heat and I always need to spray the radiator with a hose (air seems to be insufficient). And at idle, they still generate a lot of heat, however the stock clutch fan and a fresh 3- or 4-core radiator should be able to keep it cool even at idle. (If your car has a/c, this will further restrict airflow). Once your car is moving, say 25 MPH, this will help keep that beast cool.

Those oil pressure numbers seem pretty normal to me.

How do you know that one side of the engine gets more oil than the other side?

If you put the PCV in the valvecover, it needs a shroud or it will suck in oil. That's why the intake manifold can be a better location. However the PCV feeds in below the carb, so oil (if that is the source of the smoke) should come out both sides evenly.

There will be a bit of startup smoke "just because", but it sounds like you might have too much. Does it smell rich? Or like oil smoke? If it is rich, some tweaking of the idle mixture adjustment screws should do the trick...

-Bob C.

**telriv** · 02-10-2009, 04:08 PM

Something quick & easy to check just for the hey of it. Short story. Friend of mine did a rebuild on his 421 Catalina. While taking the engine out of the car he put a rag into the lower radiator hose outlet at the water pump to try & contain as much coolant as possible & not make a mess. Months later on start-up had the same problems. Would get hot very quickly. Didn't run it much, but ended up wiping the cam & rings because of this. Pulled it all apart again & started all over as he couldn't find anything wrong. This time he asked if I would come over for the initial start. Got hot very quickly again!!!!!! Checking things over & over & over & couldn't find anything. Finally in disgust we started taking off the timing case cover to check cam timing. During this we discovered the rag. He remembers putting it there & forgot all about it.
A just FYI. Never know. It's the simple things that can, & many times do, trip you up. Remember the old saying, the "Kiss" principal, "Keep It Simple Stupid"
"

**major_mitt** · 02-10-2009, 05:16 PM

When I primed the oil pump using an old distributor with the valve covers off, oil came pouring out of the passenger side and came out far slower in the drivers side. If u look through the filler cap on the drivers side you can see the oil flowing but if you look at the passenger side through the pcv hole its coming out at a much higher rate.

less than 10psi at idle isnt too low?
i havnt seen it go to more than 30psi at 3000rpm.

And thats with 20w50 oil

**bob k. mando** · 02-10-2009, 06:34 PM

less than 10psi at idle isnt too low?

are you using a stock or aftermarket gauge?

how much less? 10lbs per 1000 rpm is the typical rule of thumb for a Buick.

for a fix, you can shim the pressure relief valve on the oil pump with a washer the TA adjustable relief valve is simpler but washers under the spring will work just fine.

It gets really hot really fast for no apparent reason,

how hot is "really hot".

have you checked the function of your fan clutch, replaced the thermostat and radiator hoses?

what is the condition of the inside of your aluminum water pump housing and impeller?

new radiator or old?

oil came pouring out of the passenger side and came out far slower in the drivers side.

this, i'm not sure i like.

was the block cleaned?

Large quantities of smoke out the passenger side bank,

inspect the plugs for richness or oil. or could it be water?

water would explain your overheating problem ( head gasket ).

**Bob** · 02-10-2009, 06:38 PM

Maybe you will have to pull your timing cover and make sure the oil gallery plugs are in correctly. If you have to pull timing cover to check the plugs, there is also the possiblity of damage to the gasket where the pump pulls and pushes from the block to the gasket.

I saw a motor put together so tight that it heated the first couple of times it was started. It was fine after that.

**BigRivy** · 02-11-2009, 01:06 AM

I'd still recheck the timing. Late timed engines will run fine but will build heat like you describe. Was timing set with the vacuum advance disconnected? Were the timing marks on the balancer and front cover checked with TDC on number 1 before the heads were installed? I've never seen a slipped balancer on a Buick, but I've seen plenty of Chevy's do it. You could add some advance and see if it helps.
On the oil pump, what is your actual measured clearance between the end of the gears and the cover? Just putting new gears in and bolting on a booster plate does not mean that the clearance will be right. Every gasket maker uses a different thickness of gasket in their gasket sets. I have kept every extra gasket from every gasket set I've ever had. They range from .002 to .009 thou. in thickness. You have to measure your gear to cover clearance and choose a gasket that will give you the required clearance. Sometimes the gears will even protrude a thou or two. TA performance sells a gasket assortment specifically for this selective fitting. Every Buick that I've put together with the minimum clearance will run whatever pressure the relief valve in the pump is set at at cruising speed. Usually about 40 to 45 lbs. at 2200 rpm. That's with new, tight main clearances also.
The only thing that I can think of that will cause low oil delivery to the drivers side rockers is a front cam bearing that is not "clocked" properly to line up the oil passages that supply oil to the drivers side. TA, I believe, also sells a by pass hose kit that will bypass oil to the drivers side oil gallery in case of front cam bearing problems. Would be easier to install that kit than to tear down the engine to fix the cam bearing issue. Not really the right way to do it though. I would look at the oil flow over all the rockers, not just the one you can see through the oil fill hole, while the engine was running before I did anything drastic or condemned any parts or assembly.
As for as the smoke, make real sure that you don't have a leaking valve cover pouring oil on the exhaust. Good luck.

**major_mitt** · 02-11-2009, 02:48 AM

Cooling i do believe is coming down to a dodgy fan clutch. But it will hit 210degrees without any hesitation. Air temp down here is about 80 degrees.

It's a reputable aftermarket gauge (electric). It will hover around 7-10psi idle and not pass 30psi at all (throughout rev range). It is a tad scary. It makes no sense as the relief spring is pushed up hard and it is the heavy spring that came with the pump kit. not sure on how to check the pump clearance though.

There is definitely oil up the top as I didnt tighten the rocker covers down properly and after a quick drive there was oil leaking out of them.

Rechecked all timing today with vacuum off so pretty confident thats not my issue.

List of problems is getting smaller but this oil pressure is indeed scary. I would hope that the builders had installed the cam bearings properly. The block was cleaned. The only things in the engine that didnt get changed were cam bearings which had less than 1000miles

**bobc455** · 02-11-2009, 04:48 AM

Do you know what your clearances are? It almost sounds like this was built by a chevy shop who just assumed that 0.004" clearances are okay because that's what chevies use.

One other thing for the temperature - my lower radiator hose has a spring in it. Some new hoses claim to not require the spring, but if you have an old one around it is some cheap insurance.

If your engine is hot, is your radiator hot? You should be able to spray the radiator with a hose and the water dripping off should be very hot too. If not, then the water isn't circulating properly.

Also, what was the end clearance on your oil pump? Your machinist would probably have noted this somewhere, even if the engine wasn't blueprinted. Did you get a high-volume, or high-pressure pump? (I hope not- the stock setup works just fine)

-Bob C.