The "epic" 430 rebuild caper!
Dear Team Buick big-block gurus, :shield:
I have been trying to get enough preliminaries out of the way so that I could start asking the really big questions about rebuilding this 430 engine from a 67 Electra 225. I think I have an overall plan for this job, but . . . there are a few minor details! I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on the plan so far and especially on the puzzlements I’m running into at the moment.
The general scheme is to have the block machined locally and have “Buick sensitive” work done by TA Performance. The parts list is roughly this:
- EGGE Pistons (L2255-8)
- TA high capacity water pump (TA 1537BHP - ??)
- TA reconditioned connecting rods (TA 1629A)
- TA cam (TA RV-12) and hydraulic lifters (TA 1406)
- Aluminum intake manifold (Probably Edelbrock Performer)
- TA Performance "Stage-1 street eliminator" aluminum cylinder heads. This application requires 2" Intake and 1.650" Exhaust valve openings. Also need 455 lifters and pushrods to match heads.
- TA aluminum valve covers (like TA 1327B) (ought to be worth at least 50 more horsepower! :bgrin: )
At the local machine shop the following would be performed:
- The engine would be first disassembled, hot tanked, and cleaned.
- Then the block and crankshaft would be magnafluxed.
- Next the crankshaft would be inspected and machined as required. The block would be then bored for the new pistons.
- The TA reconditioned connecting rods would be installed.
- The oil passage modifications would be performed.
- The TA RV camshaft and lifers would be installed.
- Then engine would be then reassembled with new freeze plugs, and the block would be rebalanced.
- Finally the aluminum heads would be cleaned and rechecked.
Back at Orinda Motors:
- They would install the aluminum cylinder heads and Edelbrock Performer intake manifold.
- They would install the high-capacity water pump and provide a new fan clutch and fan.
- Install new timing cover with oil pump built-in (some confusion here - see below).
- Change oil pan from mid-sump to rear-sump using 1971 or newer pick-up tube.
- A HEI distributor would be installed.
- The exhaust manifolds would be reused after cleaning and possibility porting.
- A new alternator with built-in voltage regulator would be installed.
- Finally either a rebuilt or replacement carburetor would be installed.
To look ahead at the final goal, this engine is going to be matched to a 200-4R transmission from California Performance Transmission and will somehow be squeezed into the family “Billy goat” (a 1965 Buick Special wagon). Details on this to follow in due time!
In addition to any overall observations from the big block engine gurus, I have some three questions (so far! :bgrin:)
- The only TA Performance high-capacity water pump that seems to fit on this block is TA 1537BHP. Is this going to give me a problem in fitting the engine into a 65 Special engine compartment?
- My notes from my last meeting with Orinda Motors are ambiguous with regards to whether or not to get a replacement oil pump. Given that this engine should end up at a nominal 500 hp, should the oil pump be replaced, and if so, should I go all the way to the TA Performance high-performance oil pump assembly (TA 1533A)?
- I have waffled between trying to go fuel injection and sticking to a carburetor. My last “zig” was toward a rebuilt QuadraJet. However, when I started to search the web for such a beast, they seem very hard to find for a Buick (yet again :angry:) and it seems for this engine configuration, I might want a specialty carburetor rebuild. The reason I started worrying about this comes from the QuadraJet rebuild products of JET Performance http://www.jetchip.com/Shop/shopdisp...pp=10&catID=36. To make my life really miserable, they have 9 different flavors of the QuadraJet and none fit exactly what this engine will become. The closest is the: Stage 2 | Light Truck Part #: 36002 (bottom of the web page). Are these sorts of carburetor modifications really important or are they more effective at extracting money from unsuspecting customers? :clonk: Any thoughts about how to obtain to get a really thrifty QuadraJet so that this car can get as decent gas mileage as the 60s technology allows? If I end up buying new components such as a fancy carburetor and new HEI distributor, am I really going to save that much money over a throttle-body fuel-injection system?
Thanks in advance for your time and wisdom!!
Cheers, Edouard
P.S. This engine should be a high-compression (10.25:1) model (according to the Team Buick reference and it is - of course - always right! :thumbsup:)
Thanks - "method in the madness"
Dear HenryJ and BC,
Thanks for your thoughts. Indeed there were a few details that I should have added that explains the choice of the intake manifold and RV cams. So here it comes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
henryj11
However as to the edelbrock manifold, it never showed me very much promise.
Well, Edelbrock manifold has great promise in another area important to me - it allows me to close the hood!! Comments here and on the V-8 Buick forum suggested that racing-style intake manifolds raise the carburetor so much that getting the hood closed is dicey.
In addition, my goal for the car is not racing but as a "born again" SUV (as the great American station wagon once was). The Edelbrock intake manifold provides good performance at lower RPM. So for a tow-vehicle that should work out fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bobc455
I'm kinda surprised at the cam selection. At a *minimum* I would be considering the TA-212, but with the aluminum heads I think something even more radical would be in line. I drove around with the TA-212 for many years, and it is a great combination of tame & WOT power.
Well, there are two reasons for the RV style cam: extra low end torque and high fuel economy. The hope is to get the car up into the high-teens for overall gas mileage and maybe as much as 20 mpg on the highway with overdrive. I'm really hoping to take the car out on the open road as I used to, and ya'know, gas isn't getting any cheap nor gas stations becoming more numerous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bobc455
I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish with putting in such a tame camshaft, then topping off the engine with fantastic-flowing heads.
This is a long story that I explained in its fullest misery here:http://www.teambuick.com/forums/show...94&postcount=6. Basically, trying to stick with the stock heads is likely to cost me almost as much and could lead cracked heads anyway. While I'm not using the aluminum heads in their traditional racing role, I will benefit from better fuel economy and reduced weight. So even for a cruiser, these heads will be a real plus for the car.
Cheers, Edouard
P.S. Thanks to Paul Muller's help, I have a likely candidate for the carburetor: the Jet performance rebuild of a QuadraJet #35002 http://www.jetchip.com/Shop/shopdisp...pp=10&catID=36.
Can't get good gas in . . . . Texas?
Dear carmantx,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
carmantx
Head quality makes the Buick engine. I'd like to back up and look at your overall goal. You want it to be mild, torquey engine. good for towing? I would go to the 212 cam
Okay question-1: why the 212 cam? Very high on the priority list is fuel economy. If I shift the peak torque upwards 500 rpm or more - that ain't going save me any gas. Especially, when I have a 200-4R transmission with overdrive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
carmantx
and drop compression to 9:1. We have a 10.25 compression motor, and could not get quality gas to run on. Best we have here is 90 octane.
What!?!?! Ya'mean you can't get good gas in - Texas!! :bgrin:
Maybe you should try moonshine instead!! :D
Seriously, I'm leary about lowering the compression ratio because we did that back in 1979 to the car's existing 300 and it hardly seemed to help at all for fuel economy. Given that the engine will run more efficiently with higher octane, I thought I would at least be no worse off. In California, 91 octane premium seems quite common, so I didn't think this was a problem even across the nation. Is premium vanishing everywhere else? So question-2: should I lower the compression ratio? What's the win with that? It is going to cost me more so there better be something good in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
carmantx
If you need a Buick 455, 800cfm carb built, I can build one for you.
Sure, if you guys keep changing the specs on this engine - I'll never get even started on this!! :bgrin:
Oh well, it's late for a Sunday night - I'll call it a day and look again in the morning.
Thanks again
Cheers, Edouard