Did I test the ignition switch correctly?

Finally got the security bypassed for now, its just a resistor bypass atm. Anyway the security light is now behaving.

To test if I'm getting power to the starter from the ignition switch, I unbolted the small wire on the starter and attached a length of wire that i could run up into the driver's seat where i have my multimeter.
Attachment 7290
Inside I stuck the ground probe into the metal on the high beam switch where a wire appears to ground on the steering column. The positive probe is attached to the wire. I got them both in the same pic.
Attachment 7291

The results were that it reads millivolts erratically jumping from almost 0 to almost 180 with the car turned on or off. Maybe this is normal?

I guess the important part is what happens while cranking, or trying to engage the starter. In that case there seemed to be no effect. It just keeps jumping around in mv.

Did I test it wrong? If not, what could be the problem?

I just started it by shorting the solenoid. I let it run for awhile since it's been sitting. Runs great.

Seems like that leaves the ignition switch or that other thing that has several names like nss.

All I did was lower the steering column to unbolt the ignition switch to check for key rack travel before discovering the problem was a frozen ignition lock cylinder.

According to the info I got from TODD I reinstalled the ignition switch and high beam switch correctly.

What could I have bumped into while in there that caused either the ignition switch or neutral safety switch to fail? They both worked fine before.

How can I test which one is broken?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 95ParkAve

Finally got the security bypassed for now, its just a resistor bypass atm. Anyway the security light is now behaving.

To test if I'm getting power to the starter from the ignition switch, I unbolted the small wire on the starter and attached a length of wire that i could run up into the driver's seat where i have my multimeter.
Attachment 7290
Inside I stuck the ground probe into the metal on the high beam switch where a wire appears to ground on the steering column. The positive probe is attached to the wire. I got them both in the same pic.
Attachment 7291

The results were that it reads millivolts erratically jumping from almost 0 to almost 180 with the car turned on or off. Maybe this is normal?

I guess the important part is what happens while cranking, or trying to engage the starter. In that case there seemed to be no effect. It just keeps jumping around in mv.

Did I test it wrong? If not, what could be the problem?

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This was a good test. It does not clear the ignition switch as good or bad. It does prove no 12V power is getting to the starter solenoid to make it crank. The ignition switch, the starter enable relay, and the transaxle position switch all have to switch on at the same time to get 12V power to the small purple/white wire you took loose at starter. We will test those things one by one.

The mv readings are just stray voltage--doesn't tell us anything. Ignore. Probably meter will stay at 0 if test lead tips are held together. Stray pickup is worse on AC. I have to always make sure meter is set to DC when stray voltage starts kicking up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 95ParkAve

I just started it by shorting the solenoid. I let it run for awhile since it's been sitting. Runs great.

Seems like that leaves the ignition switch or that other thing that has several names like nss.

All I did was lower the steering column to unbolt the ignition switch to check for key rack travel before discovering the problem was a frozen ignition lock cylinder.

According to the info I got from TODD I reinstalled the ignition switch and high beam switch correctly.

What could I have bumped into while in there that caused either the ignition switch or neutral safety switch to fail? They both worked fine before.

How can I test which one is broken?

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Another good test. This proves the starter solenoid and all the high-power stuff under the hood is in good working condition. Next we will test the ignition switch start circuit.

Ground voltmeter (-) lead as before. Put (+) lead on either pin of fuse 1A. Turn ignition switch to START and see what happens. Do you get 12V?

Attached is a page to show what is going on with this test.

Thanks!

This is kind of a different topic. But, this is insane so I'll just say what happened. I went to do the test and checked the battery first since the car has been sitting exactly one day all hooked up, turned off.

Yesterday the battery read 13v exactly. Today it's 12.5. Then when I got in to do the test start I saw the **** security light flashing. Again? ***? It worked every time all day yesterday.

So I'm doing the learning procedure again. The short 10 min one. Yesterday, it needed that done when I hooked up the battery. Once. Then the security light behaved after that. Maybe it has something to do with the battery getting low?

And the only thing I can think of that would drain the battery is maybe the alarm is going off at night. This horn relay is removed so we wouldn't hear it. Maybe this resistor bypass won't he enough and I need to completely bypass the vats module. Sigh.

I think it's been long enough to go try that test now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TODD

Another good test. This proves the starter solenoid and all the high-power stuff under the hood is in good working condition. Next we will test the ignition switch start circuit.

Ground voltmeter (-) lead as before. Put (+) lead on either pin of fuse 1A. Turn ignition switch to START and see what happens. Do you get 12V?

Attached is a page to show what is going on with this test.

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Okay so that bizarre battery wasting relearn thing worked again. Security light is going off after the dinging stops every time.

Tested as you described and I'm getting no power at fuse 1A. Also, another site recommended looking at the headlights while trying to start to indicate the cause. The headlights didn't dim or change in any way while turning the key to start.

So what does this result mean? From the diagram it looks like the starter enable relay isn't sending power through.

I tried to bypass that relay by grounding what I think was the right wire from the vats module.But, I have no idea if I got the right wire since it didn't work. See here for that attempt: https://www.teambuick.com/forums/sho...488#post105488

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 95ParkAve

Okay so that bizarre battery wasting relearn thing worked again. Security light is going off after the dinging stops every time.

Tested as you described and I'm getting no power at fuse 1A. Also, another site recommended looking at the headlights while trying to start to indicate the cause. The headlights didn't dim or change in any way while turning the key to start.

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Test for voltage on fuse 1A again on each pin to ground while ignition switch is in START. Do you get 12V?

Test for voltage on fuse 1B on each pin to ground while ignition switch is in RUN. Do you get 12V?

Put ignition switch in RUN. Use a jumper wire from fuse 1A either pin to fuse 1B either pin. See if it starts. Pull jumper off if it starts running.

Still getting nothing on either side of 1A while turned to start.

The wires on fuse 1B are strange. There are two small pink wires going to only one side of the fuse. I didn't think fuses worked like that.

Anyway, there's 12.33v at fuse 1B. When I jumped 1A and 1B it started! Exciting. But, I don't understand what that means. Can't wait to hear.

The retest for voltage on fuse 1A on both sides was to confirm again this fuse is not blown. If it was bad, there would be 12V present on one side but not the other.

The test on fuse 1B was to prove your ground lead connection was good. Test also proved fuse is good with voltage on both sides.

Tests up to here indicate there should be voltage on first selector arm of the ignition switch. But nothing comes out of the START wire of the switch feeding to fuse 1A. See page 8A-10-6.

So to bypass the ignition switch feed to the PASS-Key II system, the jumper wire forces 12V hot power onto fuse 1A and pin C1 of the starter enable relay. Fuse 1A then puts power on pin C2 of the starter enable relay. The jumper acts in place of the ignition switch.

When it started up and ran, we now know two things:

1. The problem is around the ignition switch. Either there is a problem with wiring to the switch or switch is not making contact internally on this START section. This is where the next troubleshooting will focus.

Hopefully you can find something visually that is disconnected, bent, or broken etc.

2. Everything else under the dash and under the hood is working as far as the PASS-Key II system is concerned.

See attached page for fuse 1B. Two pink wires coming off going to loads is correct. The hot sides of fuses 1B, 1C, 1D, and 1E are jumped together somehow inside the fuse block according to page 8A-10-6.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TODD

...The problem is around the ignition switch. Either there is a problem with wiring to the switch or switch is not making contact internally on this START section. This is where the next troubleshooting will focus.

Hopefully you can find something visually that is disconnected, bent, or broken etc.
...

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I wish I hadn't tried that other buick forum first. Someone there had me take the ignition switch off to check for key rack travel. Maybe it's not their fault. Our mechanic told us it needed a new rack, which didn't make sense because only the ignition lock was jambed. Turned out it was just a bad ignition lock cylinder.

Now it seems I caused whatever is wrong with it now, just by messing with the ignition switch.

I've installed it 3 times now, the last two times I'm sure I got it right. I've also been reaching back there while starting and gently wiggling and trying to seat all the wires so if I bumped anything loose I might find it.

I'll keep looking. But, these parts, the ign switch and high beam switch, are pretty simple. They just bolt on. If anything is wrong with them, wouldn't it be on the inside?

I'm reduced to just brainstorming now without seeing the thing in front of me. All I have to go on is the exploded view of the steering column (see attached).

Does the ignition switch operate correctly through all its positions including ACCESSORY?

I assume the rack gear that operates the switch and the sector gear on the lock cylinder have never been disassembled to where the teeth mesh incorrectly (gears out of time with each other)?

Did the mechanic say what was wrong with the rack gear? If some teeth are chewed up on the end, the rack may not be able to drive the slider in the switch all the way to START position. Can you watch the rod push the slider along in the switch as lock cylinder goes from LOCK to START? If motion stops after it goes through RUN, then rod travel is insufficient to make the START contact close. With lock cylinder held in START position, can you drive the actuator rod (#76 in pix) farther by hand and make it start up?

The wiring can be cleared if it is possible to start it up by working the slider in the switch with a rod or screwdriver. Have to be extremely careful doing this test to not let the starter stay engaged if engine starts up. Be ready to pull fuse 1A in a hurry if something hangs up.

While off the column, the slot in the slider can be checked to make sure it is not chewed up or damaged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TODD

I'm reduced to just brainstorming now without seeing the thing in front of me. All I have to go on is the exploded view of the steering column (see attached).

Does the ignition switch operate correctly through all its positions including ACCESSORY?

I assume the rack gear that operates the switch and the sector gear on the lock cylinder have never been disassembled to where the teeth mesh incorrectly (gears out of time with each other)?

Did the mechanic say what was wrong with the rack gear? If some teeth are chewed up on the end, the rack may not be able to drive the slider in the switch all the way to START position. Can you watch the rod push the slider along in the switch as lock cylinder goes from LOCK to START? If motion stops after it goes through RUN, then rod travel is insufficient to make the START contact close. With lock cylinder held in START position, can you drive the actuator rod (#76 in pix) farther by hand and make it start up?

The wiring can be cleared if it is possible to start it up by working the slider in the switch with a rod or screwdriver. Have to be extremely careful doing this test to not let the starter stay engaged if engine starts up. Be ready to pull fuse 1A in a hurry if something hangs up.

While off the column, the slot in the slider can be checked to make sure it is not chewed up or damaged.

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Thanks. I lowered the column a few inches and checked the rod travel again. It goes all the way to start and all the way to accessory. I can also see the slider through the side. I see it move along with the rod through the full range of motion.

I spent awhile under there looking for anything out of place or broken. It all looks like it goes where it always went. The wires seem in pretty good condition for being so old.

I checked the slider hole when I had it off last. It looked fine. And the hole is only big enough to fit the end of the rod that goes into it. Seems there's no way to get that wrong. The L shape in the end of the rod just slides in and it bolts on with the night beam switch. If only there wasn't that monster of a connector to deal with I might try replacing the ignition switch next.

Maybe it'll tell me something if I test the big yellow wire coming off the ignition switch next time I try to start it? Any way to narrow it down further? Like between the ignition switch and that neutral switch thing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 95ParkAve

Thanks. I lowered the column a few inches and checked the rod travel again. It goes all the way to start and all the way to accessory. I can also see the slider through the side. I see it move along with the rod through the full range of motion.

I spent awhile under there looking for anything out of place or broken. It all looks like it goes where it always went. The wires seem in pretty good condition for being so old.

I checked the slider hole when I had it off last. It looked fine. And the hole is only big enough to fit the end of the rod that goes into it. Seems there's no way to get that wrong. The L shape in the end of the rod just slides in and it bolts on with the night beam switch. If only there wasn't that monster of a connector to deal with I might try replacing the ignition switch next.

Maybe it'll tell me something if I test the big yellow wire coming off the ignition switch next time I try to start it? Any way to narrow it down further? Like between the ignition switch and that neutral switch thing?

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Check to see if there is voltage to ground on the yellow wire at the ignition switch when in START. If that point is not accessible, check other end of the yellow wire at pin B6 of the big connector with red bolt C202.

Another test is to put ignition switch in RUN and jumper fuse 1B to yellow wire at ignition switch or at C202. Jumper should make it start.

The neutral switch is way off in the circuit and has already proven good in the earlier jumper test to make it start (fuse 1A to 1B).

Attached are pages on removal of the ignition and dimmer switches. Wires disconnect from the big block in three connectors: top row, middle section (for ignition switch), and bottom row. There is a three-prong locking fork that goes in on the right to lock the pieces together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TODD

Check to see if there is voltage to ground on the yellow wire at the ignition switch when in START. If that point is not accessible, check other end of the yellow wire at pin B6 of the big connector with red bolt C202.

Another test is to put ignition switch in RUN and jumper fuse 1B to yellow wire at ignition switch or at C202. Jumper should make it start.

The neutral switch is way off in the circuit and has already proven good in the earlier jumper test to make it start (fuse 1A to 1B).

Attached are pages on removal of the ignition and dimmer switches. Wires disconnect from the big block in three connectors: top row, middle section (for ignition switch), and bottom row. There is a three-prong locking fork that goes in on the right to lock the pieces together.

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The probe doesn't seem long enough to get in where the yellow wire comes out of the ignition switch. I tried it where it enters the c202 connector, no volts.

When I jump it between fuse 1B and the yellow wire at c202, it sparks and makes an odd faint plunk sound.

Ok I was using my probe wire I had stuck in there, unplugged from the multimeter, to jump it before.

I had a hunch so I poked a larger wire in there on the big yellow wire at c202, then ran it to fuse 1B. It started.

However, when I test for voltage to ground on my jumper wire, which I know is now connected at c202, I still get no volts.

What does it mean? Ignition switch went bad from me unbolting it and putting it back on?

OMG OMG OMG!

I should have tried this yesterday but I didn't have the battery hooked up. I finally tried poking the slider gently with a screwdriver while turning to start.

A tiny poke is all it takes and it starts! It must be about a quarter mm off where it needs to be. Holy moly these cars are sensitive.

Anyway, Yes! At least I know nothing is broken. Just need to get that switch seated a smidge further down the column. :bana::clonk::D

Very good! If adjustment doesn't do the job, the START section of the switch must be defective.

Thanks a million TODD. Without your brainstorming I never would have found the problem.

If anyone in the future has the same issue, here's what I wish someone could have told me weeks ago. And, this isn't even in the service manual! At least not the pages I was shown.

When installing the ignition switch/high beam switch together, the ignition switch needs to be as far down the column as it'll go, while the high beam switch needs to be as far up the column, towards the steering wheel, as it will go.

Or, at least make sure both work correctly before tightening and if not wiggle whichever one isn't working in the direction it needs to go without moving the other.

I finally got the ignition switch working, got all excited and tightened it all down, thought I was done. Ha. Had to do it all again when I noticed I'd lost the high beam switch.

It all works now. But, unfortunately the security light keeps flashing any time I open the door. I have to perform the 10 min relearn thing every time. After that it works fine, but this is nuts. But that's another topic. This thread's issue is totally solved. Thanks again TODD