1947 to 1952 Engine Swap

[ailimac]

Help please. I am new to the forum and also new to Buicks (my last project was a 36 Dodge D2). I recently purchased a 1947 Buick Special Sedanette Series 40. The car needs a total rebuild. As far as I know it has the original 248 staight 8 in it, which I have already removed. I got some advice from another forum and was told I can use any 263 straight 8 from 1947 to 1952. So when I came across a running 1952 263 engine I bought it (stamped engine ID 56094594, casting number 13880207). I was told I would just have to switch the front mounting plate from the 47 to the 52 and remove the side mounts on the 52. My 47 has a manual transmission. Now I am told that the 52 engine, which had an auto trans on it won't fit the 47 transmission. Is this true? If so is there anything I can do. The auto trans from the 52 is available to me if I want to buy it but will that fit in my 47 without any major modifications?
And what about switching the front mounting plate. The harmonic balancer doesn't have any holes to use a normal balancer puller. I tried using a hydraulic gear puller but only got it to move 3/16" (on the 47). I think I may be fighting the balancer against the hydraulic jack now. Before I continue to try and get the balancer off I would like to find out if I can even use the 52 263 engine.
I would greatly appreciate any advice.
Pete

[JR9162]

Pete,
Use the front mounting plate from the earlier engine on your 263. Swap it out with the plate that's under the 263's timing gear. You may have to look at the 263 block, compare the holes in the two plates, and drill extra hole(s) in the earlier mount plate... Not a big deal. After drilling the hole(s), chamfer the edges slightly to remove any drilling burrs.
Use the 248's bellhousing on the 263 block. You'll need this because it's what the 3 speed tranny is bolted to, and there's rear motor mounts that attach to said bellhousing. The 248 bellhousing bolts directly to the 263 block.
If your 263 was originally equipped with a dynaflow you'll need to remove the adapter extension bolted to the back of the 263's block in order to bolt up the 248 bellhousing. The extenson was used to bolt the dynaflow tranny to. In this case you should obtain a 263 flywheel, which may need it's cener hole enlarged to physically fit on the 263 crankshaft rear snout. You'll also need to have a pilot bearing adapter machined to fit in the dynaflow equipped crankshaft, as the hole there is larger in order to mate to the dynaflow torque converter.
You can eleminate steps in the 3rd paragraph by using a 263 that was OEM equipped with a 3 speed. However, the 248 bellhousing is required. Early 248's had 4 engine motor mounts and a tranny mount. The latter 248 and all 263's have 2 motor mounts and a tranny mount.
To remove the front dampner, I used a gear puller that had claws on it. Once the dampner begins to move it should wiggle off the crankshaft snout. Practice with the 248 engine 1st and pulling the one off the 263 will be a snap. However, clearly mark them as you do not want to mix them up. John

[ailimac]

Thanks John. Sounds pretty straight forward. For a minute I thought I may have had to sell the engine. Once again, thanks very much.

Pete

['51 Special]

Pete-
The reason for the issues with the switch the engine from the automatic to the three-speed transmission is that Buick used different crankshafts, depending on the type of transmission. The Dynaflow flexplate connects to the crank with machine screws, and the flange on the rear of the Dynaflow crankshaft is thicker to accomodate the threads for the machine screws. The three-speed crankshaft uses bolts through the flange, which are inserted from the front, with washers and nuts snugged to the flywheel.
I recently converted a 51 Special from automatic to three-speed. When faced with the same set of problems, I located a crankshaft from a three-speed 263, and avoided all of the issues with mating the automatic crankshaft to the three-speed. And, because I tore apart my 263 to switch cranks, I discovered it was running fine, but with six cracked pistons. Who knew?
--It may be possible to use the machine screws that originally connected the flexplate to the crankshaft to bolt up the flywheel. i did not try this as the machine screws are a good deal less stout.
--In order to bolt the flywheel to a Dynaflow crank, you will need to drill out the existing threads, and also remove the pan and rear main bearing cap to insert the bolts. I am unsure of the effect, if any, of the difference in thickness of the Dynaflow crankshaft flange (thicker) and the three-speed crankshat flange on fitting the clutch. It is pretty tight within the Buick bell housing.
-- As JR9162 noted, the snout of the Dynaflow is much larger than the front shaft on the three-speed, and you will need an adapter to mount a pilot bearing. I located a shop in Florida that makes these adapters for the nailhead v-8s, and was told by the owner that the adapter should work with the straight eights. Because I changed my crankshaft, i never followed up, but could probaly find the contact information if you are interested.
Good luck with your 47.
'51 Special

[ailimac]

Thanks for info 51.
Let me ask you this. What if I used the auto transmission instead of trying to adapt the manual transmission. Would it fit in relasonship to the drive shaft or motor mounts? Would I be looking at any major modifications down the line? The person I bought the engine from still has the auto trans and is willing to sell.
Thanks again.
Pete

[raycow]

What if I used the auto transmission instead of trying to adapt the manual transmission. Would it fit in relasonship to the drive shaft or motor mounts? Would I be looking at any major modifications down the line?

Adapting the Dynaflow crank to the manual flywheel will be MUCH less work than trying to install a Dynaflow in a 47 or earlier car. You can do any necessary mods on the crank flange without having to remove the crank from the engine. On my swap I kept the threads in the flange and made new bolts that go through the flywheel from the clutch side.

Your major challenge with the Dynaflow is that it has no provisions for attaching the 47 rear mounts. If you compare the Dynaflow and manual bellhousings, the difference will immediately be evident.

Ray

['51 Special]

Thanks for info 51.
Let me ask you this. What if I used the auto transmission instead of trying to adapt the manual transmission. Would it fit in relasonship to the drive shaft or motor mounts? Would I be looking at any major modifications down the line? The person I bought the engine from still has the auto trans and is willing to sell.
Thanks again.
Pete

Pete-Sorry to take so long to respond. I was off-line for a few days. Raycow is absolutely correct about the problems with stuffing a Dynaflow into your car. He didn't even get to issues with finding and switching in a later steering column, and that no one manufactures a floor shift conversion for the Buick manual transmission. Ray's suggestions for connecting a flywheel to the Dynaflow crank make a lot of sense, and would be a good bit simpler than what I did.

[ailimac]

Now that I have decided to go with the manual trans I began trying to get the trans off the old engine. I have been trying for 3 days and can not get the trans off the motor. I got it to move about 3/4 of an inch and thats it. I've been soaking the shaft thru the bell housing with rust desolver but nothing. I can spin the transmission around but the shaft stays stationary. I've tried prying it with an 8 foot bar. This tranny doesn't want to come apart. I'm trying not to destroy anything. Wednesday I am going to hang the engine by the transmission on an engine hoist and try and use the wieght of the engine and the pry bar to get it to separate. I am definetly going to video this, just in case I crush a leg or something.
I double checked all my manuals to make sure I didn't miss any hidden bolts or set screws but found nothing. As anyone had this type of issue before?
Pete

[raycow]

I've tried prying it with an 8 foot bar. This tranny doesn't want to come apart. I'm trying not to destroy anything. Wednesday I am going to hang the engine by the transmission on an engine hoist and try and use the wieght of the engine and the pry bar to get it to separate.

Don't apply force on the bellhousing to adaptor ring joint or you will damage the converter. The same goes for the case to bellhousing joint. I mentioned both of these because I'm not sure where you are prying just now.

The Dynaflow is unlike any other automatic transmission that you have ever seen or worked on. To get it off the engine, you will need to remove the bolts around the edge of the converter that hold it to the flexplate. There is a hole in the adaptor that will give you access to the bolts. Drain the converter first or else you will get very wet. There are two plugs on the converter about 180 degrees apart for this purpose.

Once you get the transmission off the adaptor, unbolt the flexplate from the crank. You will then be able to get to the inside bolts that hold the adaptor to the engine. The rest of the bolts are on the front side where you can see them.

If you want to get the converter off the transmission, you first have to take the transmission off the engine as described above. Then take the converter apart from the front.

Ray

[ailimac]

Don't apply force on the bellhousing to adaptor ring joint or you will damage the converter. The same goes for the case to bellhousing joint. I mentioned both of these because I'm not sure where you are prying just now.

The Dynaflow is unlike any other automatic transmission that you have ever seen or worked on. To get it off the engine, you will need to remove the bolts around the edge of the converter that hold it to the flexplate. There is a hole in the adaptor that will give you access to the bolts. Drain the converter first or else you will get very wet. There are two plugs on the converter about 180 degrees apart for this purpose.

Once you get the transmission off the adaptor, unbolt the flexplate from the crank. You will then be able to get to the inside bolts that hold the adaptor to the engine. The rest of the bolts are on the front side where you can see them.

If you want to get the converter off the transmission, you first have to take the transmission off the engine as described above. Then take the converter apart from the front.

Ray
Im sorry Ray I didn't make it clear that I was trying to separate the manual trans from the old engine. I removed the 4 tranny bolts and am prying between the trans and the bell housing.
Pete

[raycow]

Now that is really strange. It sounds like the transmission input shaft is rusted into either the clutch disc or the pilot bearing. How long has it been since the car was last driven?

Ray

[ailimac]

I don't really know for sure but I would estimate over 30 years.

[raycow]

Ouch! Well that explains a lot anyway, except for how to get the thing apart.

You said the transmission is about 3/4" away from the bellhousing. If you hang the engine/transmission assembly with the input shaft pointing down, do you have enough room to get in there and dribble penetrating oil down between the shaft and the release bearing support sleeve? Maybe use a piece of small diameter flexible tubing on the spout of your oil can?

Don't forget to drain the oil out of the transmission before you hang it. Probably a good idea to drain the engine too.

Ray

['51 Special]

Pete- From my experience removing a manual transmission from a '50 Super that had sat belly down in the dirt for many years, and mice had nested within the bell housing, I believe the clutch driven plate in your '47 has rusted to the front shaft of the transmission. I assume the engine is frozen, and that you cannot effectively depress the clutch pressure plate with the peddle. It may help to get the clutch release yoke out of the way. That helps if you are trying to pry between the throw-out bearing and pressure plate. Also, before you follow through on the idea of hanging the engine and transmission, remove the torque ball (so you can get a grip), put the tranny in gear, and try to turn the shaft back and forth to break up the rust. if you must hang the engine and transmission from the transmission, you need to lift it so the bottom of what you are lifting clears your floor by only an inch or so. And stand well back if you attempt any prying. If it comes apart, you are going to have close to half a ton of iron trying to find a place to be. '51 Special

[Jenz38]

Im sorry Ray I didn't make it clear that I was trying to separate the manual trans from the old engine. I removed the 4 tranny bolts and am prying between the trans and the bell housing.
Pete For my understanding,You mean the 4 Bolts from the Bell to the Engine,or the 4 Bolts from Tranny to Bell ? I ask,because between the Bell and the Engine are 2 Bolts from inside the Bell to the Engine. You can only loosen they when you first put out the Clutch and then the Flywheel. Maybe Anybody in the past Time has "forgot" this 2 Bolts then you have now with the Clutch and Flywheel on theyr Place the Problem like you described....only an Idea from me ..

[ailimac]

51 Special, you out there?

I was wondering if you have the contact info for the guy in Florida who makes the adapter you spoke of (dybaflow crank to 3 speed manual).

Thanks.
Pete

[raycow]

Pete, does this mean you were able to separate the trans from the engine? If yes, how did you do it?

Ray

[ailimac]

Oh yeah, it separated. 3967 After 2 wedges and 20 or 30 wacks with a sledge it finally snapped. 3968 I had to cut the broken end of the trans shaft out of the bell housing with a cut off wheel. The broken end of the trans shaft is still and will forever remain stuck in the clutch. 3969 Oh, I also had to remove the crankshaft to get at the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate because of all the rust. I have the new engine, and the trans is rebuilt, all I need is the adapter to get the manual trans to the Dynaflow crankshaft. Unless I find a manual 263 crankshaft. 3970 3971 I have some feelers out for the adapter cause I'm told there's a few shops that make them but have not had any responses yet. 3972 I've completed most of the front end so has soon as the engine and trans are ready I can drop them right in. 3973 Pete

[raycow]

WOW! In my entire lifetime of working on cars, I have never seen anything like that. Now I understand why you had to sacrifice the bearing support.

Since you are painting the trans case, does this mean you have already found a replacement input shaft?

Ray

[ailimac]

Yes, found another 3 speed and harvested the internals an did the rebuild myself. The spare trans I bought didn't have the bolt holes on the casing for the trans support so that's why I had to swap the internals.

['51 Special]

[QUOTE=51 Special, you out there?

I was wondering if you have the contact info for the guy in Florida who makes the adapter you spoke of (dybaflow crank to 3 speed manual).

Thanks.
Pete QUOTE] Pete- I have been off-line for a few days, and will not have access to my records for another week. I'll look for the info as soon as I can. '51

['51 Special]

Pete- I remembered that I had sent an email to someone else on the same subject a few months ago, and looked it up. The contact information follows. Note, I have not bought such a part from this source because I found a manual crank. When I phoned (before I found the manual crank), I was told to measure the opening in the Dynaflow crank, call with that info, and he would see if he had a part in stock, for a later application, that would it. '51 Russell Martin
CENTERVILLE AUTO REPAIR
Grass Valley,California. 530-272-1564
nailhead_russ@yahoo.com
WWW.nailheadbuick.com (http://www.nailheadbuick.com/)
www.centervilleautorepair.com (http://www.centervilleautorepair.com/)
EBAY store name "Buickrodder"
http://stores.ebay.com/buickrodder_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm

[ailimac]

Thanks 51. I actually found him on the internet a few weeks ago and sent him (Russ) an email explaining my situation. He replied that he should have something that would work. I called him a few times but every time we spoke he said he would call me back but never did. So I actually called him back today and spoke with a different person who was more interested and I bought an adapter that is actually for a nailhead. I'm hoping it will work, if not I am going to duplicate the design of it to fit my engine. I know a couple of good machinist in work who are willing to try and make one if need be. I'll keep you posted on how it turns out when I get the part. Pete

['51 Special]

Pete- I am interested in knowing if there is a (relatively) easy way to convert a dynaflow crank for use with a stick and flywheel. Also, this may be a good place to pass on a tip provided by my machinist. No doubt some old hands know about this, but I had never heard of it. My flywheel needed to be resurfaced and balanced with the crank. The machinist noted that the flywheel teeth were is considerably less than perfect shape, and asked if I was going to replace the ring. I said not, due to the high cost of reproduction pieces. He then offered to press the ring off, turn it over, and press it back on. all for $20. The good side of the ring now faces the starter, and I have, effectively, a new flywheel. '51

[Jenz38]

This is what I had needed for using a 263 Dynaflow Motor in Front of my 3 Speed Tranny :


http://up.picr.de/16530931au.jpg

A new Flywheel with the Bolt Circle from the Dynaflow Crank and a Adapter for the Pilot Bearing.

[ailimac]

Jeenz38, Is there anyway you can send me a larger photo or copy of your plans? My email is ailimac@att.net It looks as if I may have to do the same thing you did.

Special51, in response to your last post you can see that it really isn't as easy as a lot of people have posted, at least for the 47 to 53 swap I am working on. I am still waiting to recieve the adapter to know if it will fit. The adapter is made for a nailhead conversion so I won't know if it works until I get it (should be coming anyday now). If it doesn't fit at least I will have a pattern for one to be made to fit the 263 crank. But thats only one part of the swap, then there is the flywheel fitting to the crankshaft. The ends of the crankshafts are completely different and do not match up to the flywheel as easily as some posters have suggested. As you can see from the last post the easiest (but not cheapest) is to have a flywheel made. Pretty extreme but it appears to be the only answer, unless there is a flywheel from another GM vehicle that will match the automatic dynaflow crank that I am not aware of. There is one other thing I have been thinking about and that is to have a ring, or spacer machined to fit in the 248 flywheel center opening that will make it fit to the dynaflow crank. It would be machined so it could be welded in then ground flush with the surface. Then have the original mounting holes welded up and redrilled to match the crank mounting holes. Of course this could all be avoided by finding a 263 crank from a manual motor and swapping it out. A route I would much rather take but just can't find a 263 manual crank (well, I actually have found one but its in Alaska). All in all, if you enjoy trying to solve problems and finding solutions, getting frustrated and making things fit, I'm having a ball.
Pete

['51 Special]

As I noted in a previous post, the Dynaflow flexplate connects to the crank with machine screws, and the flange on the rear of the Dynaflow crankshaft is thicker to accomodate the threads for the machine screws. The stick-shift crankshaft uses bolts through the flange, which are inserted from the front, with washers and nuts snugged to the flywheel. I never even got to the point of addressing whether the bolt/screw pattern on the crank flanges was different, or whether (without machine work) the Dynaflow crank flange depth would allow room for the clutch in the stock bell housing. I've never been in a position to spend huge money on my project, and so I looked for the three-speed crank I eventually used. I am no machinist, but I suspect that, while a custom flywheel could be created and used for a Dynaflow crank (and pressing on a stock Buick starter ring gear would reduce the cost of the custom flywheel), the least costly option would be to find a stick-shift crank, and the second-least costly option would be to machine the Dynaflow crank to fit a stock Buick flywheel, and to accept an insert to carry the pilot bearing.'51

[Jenz38]

I have done this because its absolutly impossible to find especially here in Germany a 263 with a Shift Crank.
If I have Luck to get another Engine for spare,I'm also look in the States,its mostly of course a Dynaflow One.
Another Reason is thats a Friend of mine is working in a big Shop and they manufactured Gearboxes.
He told me if I normaly would paying with all the drawing an machining of the Flywheel its nearly 3000 €
without the new Starterring from Bob.
Pete, in the nexf Days when I'm back home then I will try to make very good Pics of it.
The Boltholes for the Clutch are matched to pick up a 4 Liter Jeep Pressure Plate they will match to the original Clutch Plate and the Buick Throwout Bearing..
I hope my English is understandable .....:confused:

[ailimac]

I understand you fine. Thanks.

[Jenz38]

I understand you fine. Thanks.
Have send you a Mail.

[ailimac]

Well I got the adapt, and as I expected, it doesn't fit. It could be modified by machining it to fit but then that still leaves me with the problem of the flywheel not fitting the crank properly. Jen has sent me detailed blueprints on having a flywheel made but this would be a very expensive project between having the adapt machined and the flywheel made. So at this point I have made my final decision to just replace the crankshaft with one from a manual transmission car.

[chicopillo]

Hi,
I have the same problem, going from dynaflow 263 to manual 248. so far I know I can't use the 263 crankshaft wont work with my manual set up so, I will order the adapter but reading what you post that the manual flywheel wont fit the 263 engine? I really didn't tried the manual flywheel, you mean the manual flywheel will not match the 263 crankshaft holes?

[ailimac]

The manual flywheel for the 248 will not match the 263 dynaflow crank. Bolt holes are slightly off and hole in center of flywheel is different diameter. So even if you get an adapter the flywheel won't fit. Only viable answer was from Jen who had a flywheel made. The adapter I bought makes a good paper weight. Having a fly wheel made is very extreme and costly. I'm still searching for a manual 263 crank shaft. They seem to be far and few.

[chicopillo]

The manual flywheel for the 248 will not match the 263 dynaflow crank. Bolt holes are slightly off and hole in center of flywheel is different diameter. So even if you get an adapter the flywheel won't fit. Only viable answer was from Jen who had a flywheel made. The adapter I bought makes a good paper weight. Having a fly wheel made is very extreme and costly. I'm still searching for a manual 263 crank shaft. They seem to be far and few.



Have you tried having the machine shop drill new holes or the need it holes to match the 263 dyna crankshaft?

[ailimac]

You would need to have existing holes welded solid and then you would be able to drill new holes but that still leaves you with the problem of center hole being a different diameter. There are also two studs that are on the dynaflow crank that need to sit in the flywheel. If you were to try and drill holes for these studs on the manual flywheel you will break through the side of the center hole because there just isn't enough meat on the flywheel.

['51 Special]

Alimac-
If it helps, I believe the most numerous manual transmission 263s are in 1950 Supers. They are far less common that the Dynaflows in those cars, but there were far more '50 Supers made than any other models in the four-year run of the 263. And, of course, don't be discouraged by an engine with terrible exterior appearance. (I got mine out of a car that sat hood-less, and with the manifolds off, for decades. Luckily, the engine was in the car, and the water in the crankcase floated the oil up enough to keep the crank bathed. I could have run it without any grinding. But, if everthing had been rusted solid, the crank likely would have been salvagable.)
'51 Special

[ailimac]

http://flickr.com/photos/pete831/ photos of my project.

[chicopillo]

Pete,
I found a 50 roadmaster engine manual rusty. I cleaned painted installed in car but now the issue its and you might have with the engine you have in the pictures its that the water pump stick out a lot because its different block and the fan will hit the radiator. This will apply only if you had the 248 engine before as I did. so far this its my only issue.

Gus

[ailimac]

Well I finally am ready to install the newly ground crankshaft into the 263 block. The crank was ground and straightened. I removed the original crank and bought new bearings properly sized but when I went to install them they did not fit, not even close. Now I'm not sure if the bearings are wrong or the engines not a 263. When I bought the motor I was told it was a 263 from a 52, model unknown. The bearings I bought, and I double checked, are for a 263 1952. The engine number is 5609459-4. I've tried searching for info on the engine number but found nothing conclusive. Can anyone identify engine by the number and verify that it is in fact a 263. I posted under Engine IDs also. Thanks

Pete

[LONG]

http://www.teambuick.com/reference/ident_engine_til_52.php

[ailimac]

Thanks but doesn't help. Reference just gives years engine number were in. Need to know if corresponding engine number is 248 or 263.

[raycow]

Your engine came out of a 1950 Special and that makes it a 248.

Ray

[ailimac]

Thank you Ray.

['51 Special]

This will be of little comfort to ailimac, but a 248 can be told from a 263 without a teardown (revealing the different size main journals on the 248) or resorting to engine numbers that Ray helped with. As Alleycat observed in his lengthy discussion on the 248-263-320, each cylinder on a 263 has a reinforcing rib running down the outside of the block. Those ribs are absent on the 248 (and the 320). Ailimac may have bought the 248 from a seller who indeed pulled that 248 from a '52, and just assumed he had a 263.
'51 Special

[ailimac]

Believe it or not this is all working out for the better. I'm actually glad its a 248, this way no modifications to radiator positionong are needed. And I've had the original 248 crank sitting outside throughout this whole ordeal. Its a little rusty but it seems to measure up to specs and will not need to be machined. So, I now have a nice newly cut 263 manual crankshaft and a 263 Dynaflow crankshaft. Except for some lost time and about $600 invested in the 263 manual crankshaft (shipping, machining, etc.) I'm ready to move on and get it installed. I figure they will make nice garden ornaments.

[JR9162]

Believe it or not this is all working out for the better. I'm actually glad its a 248, this way no modifications to radiator positionong are needed. And I've had the original 248 crank sitting outside throughout this whole ordeal. Its a little rusty but it seems to measure up to specs and will not need to be machined. So, I now have a nice newly cut 263 manual crankshaft and a 263 Dynaflow crankshaft. Except for some lost time and about $600 invested in the 263 manual crankshaft (shipping, machining, etc.) I'm ready to move on and get it installed. I figure they will make nice garden ornaments.

Hang on to that 263 manual crankshaft. They are getting hard to come by. Since all the machine work is done maybe someone will want to relieve you of it, either here in the US or across one of the ponds.