Rebuild 231 or by 350

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Don's 77 Sky

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I like the V6 that is my car a 77 Skylark but stock its only a 105 hp, my Ford Escort has more, but I have been checking on items to do a rebuild and hop ups, I have found headers and rebuild kit but not much else, so I don't know if it will have performance enough that I can get from a 350, and with the price of gas do you think I would end up with better mileage from the 231 or the 350, since it will take less to get the car moving with a 350 then it would with the 231. I really need some input...I want to get started doing one or the other.
 
you first need to tell yourself whether or not you want gas mileage, or power. are you doing highway miles, or mostly running around impressing the chicks at the local dairy queen? Know what I mean? I personally would go with the 350, just cause it has a little more umph for the buck. But then again, you can't really price things out for Buicks, cause they're all over priced to begin with. I was toying around with putting a chevy in my 71 skylark just because I could get 500 hp. for the price of 350 hp out of a buick block. I decided to just stick with the buick for little to no reasons worth mentioning. Hope it helps I guess.
 
Being as you are asking the question, I would feel that your probably not really in love with the 350 idea at any cost. So I would suggest serious consideration to just "dolling" up the 231. A few mods will probably make you happy, and if you do them right, you will even get better gas milage!

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If we can assume that the V6 is ready for a rebuild anyway, go for high comp pistons, a street cam from someone like comp, crane or isky, and the normal bearings etc., and you can wake it up quite nicely.
If you are prepared to do the work and spend the cash, a properly prepared 350 is the way to go - but bear in mind you will be doing a lot of work and spending quite a bit of cash!!
Either way, you can't lose really, can you?
People to speak to for parts kits? Try PAW, Speed-o-motive, Summit Racing, or you can trawl the web and find individual parts possibly cheaper
Best of luck,
Malc
 
I appreciate your suggestions, I in a way your right I don't want to go through the hassle of getting another motor, I like the V6 it just needs some umph, it has nothing off the line but on the freeway it runs like nobodies business. The motor has 90+ thousand miles and its doe for build, and I have looked on the web for parts but its been a struggle to find 231 specific parst. Maybe I will just have to go to my local shop and see if they can help me on getting some performance. I do like milage..and the way the price of gas is going...I want to keep it...thanks again.

I'm a bit old for the Dairy Queen scene and I am sure my wife would not like me checking out sceniory.
 
One more thing, the car has Air conditioning, but doesn't produce much on the cold side, I think its a fre-on(sorry no spell check) type system, am I still able to get it recharged and if not what would it take to make it compliant with todays type. Would I need to just change one thing or the whole system to make it work?
 
Don,
Speed-o-Motive are in California (San Diego, I think), so at least they are in the same state. If you phone them they are very helpful, and will let you select the parts to put a kit together, I think a basic master kit to suit a 231 is about $350 - 400, with pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, and cam etc., so they are certainly not too expensive. I bought a kit for a 383 Chrysler from them a long time ago, & if their service is still the same you won't be disappointed.
Best of luck,
Malc
 
Don,
Speed-o-motive, 131 North Lang Ave, West Covina, California.
Ph. (626) 869-0270
Fax (626) 869-0278
Deluxe Master Rebuild Kit
cast or forged pistons, rings, rod and main brgs, gasket set, cam & lifters, oil pump
231 non-turbo cast $345 forged $615
231 turbo cast $495 forged $645
www.speedomotive.com
Malc
 
Malc, thanks for the tip, West Covina is just a few miles down the frwy from here...I will defently check out there site and give a them a call for a bit of Q & A about parts.

Really appreciate the tip!
 
Well gents, I appreciate all your info, but at the moment I have a new problem. The motor over heated, darn gauge didn't work.....well know when I start the engine, its running really rough. I would like to know your opinions of what is wrong and if it means taking the engine apart, then I guess now is a good time as any for the rebuild. Oh by the way I didn't notice any water in the oil, but I am not sure exactly what it would look like in the first place.
 
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Hi Don

That Gm 3800 (231) is a Super Motor. I have the Supercharged Version in my 2000 Regal GSE. 240 hp and with slight modification I can get 300 hp. I get 30mpg on the highway 25 round town. I don't know if they make replacement motors for real wheel drives. Then again you can always upgrade to a Turbo Grand National Powerplant. They are making 231 Blocks to accomodate 1000 hp.
If You want a daily driver with fuel economy in mind you could rebuild or pick up a 3.8 Goodwrench Motor for RWD. That Motor was the standard engine for some Camaro's and Firebirds which were RWD. You will have to Shop around. Dealer/Distributors will vary in price as much as $500.00. I found the cheepest guy and he delivered the motor to my door for 1800. I now have 267,684 miles on that same motor. The Buick 231 V-6 was selected as one of the 10 best Engines of the 20 Century.
Let us know how You make -out. After all WE are all concerned with Resurecting Buicks. Many of US, Yours Truely are in the process of bringing bringing a Buick back to like after it was given up for dead. We don't want any Buicks living a past life as Ghosts, or Skeletons in a closet till our dying day. My '56 is called The Banshee, for just that reason.
Good Luck with Your Endeavor
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Tom Gallagher
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Tom, I appreciate your suggestions. Will my transmission bolt up the motors that you have suggested? If so that would be a great idea, fuel injection instead of carb, I like the idea or will I need/ or should I get the trans to go along with it.
 
Hey Don,

I don't know What Type of Trans You have, but I sure you will have a few options. There are Vendors/Suppliers that made Trans Adaptors for Bellhousings for many Applications.
I will be the First to tell you that I'm to Totally versed on the Subject of Engine swopping, but Most any Alternative is possible to be Performed. What it comes down to is How much Money does it Cost and How much You can affort to spend. Then there is The Computer Compatability issues, which Fuel Injection would probably require.
That Facit I'm not real familiar with. I have a tough enough time operating This machine I'm writing on.(LOL) Fuel Injection and Computers and the Techknowledgy are far beyond My understanding and comprehension.
I don't want to sound like I'm brushing you off, but you probably may be able to get better answers on the Late Model Engines Forum of Buick.net Tech. I'm not totally versed on the Subject, and I certainly wouldn't want to steer you in the wrong direction. I know there are Members on Buicks.net who are knowledgeable and have Hands-On Experience on the Subject
I hope there are some other Members who can shed more favorable light on the subject, where You can get the correct and proper answers to your intregueing questions.

Tom Gallagher
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Tom I understand technology, but you are correct I didn't think of the computer, I will have to take that into consideration, Thanks!

Well you hit it though, how much am I willing or able to spend.

What I would like to do is something to improve the over all power/performance and try and keep the milage. I know its tuff to do but that is were I see this going.

I do appreciate your knowledge and suggestions keep them coming. And I will visit other parts of the site and hope I get the same friendly replies that you have given.
 
I've had my 77 Skylark 3.8 since '96 and have rebuild the motor once and considered swaps a number of times, currently I have the 3.8 with a 200r4 overdrive behind it for excellent mileage. Your stock trans should be the standard 200. When it come to rebuilding, make sure you know if you have the even fire or odd fire V6, noted by the spacing of the spark plug wires on the cap. There are more options for the even fire engine. Going with a fuel injected system in CA (I've researched it) means stricter emission testing at the smog stations, though in 2007 we shouldn't have to worry about it. Going with the 350 (or 455 ;) )would just require the bigger engine passing the six cylinder emissions, piece o' cake with that car. I was a week away from putting a 455 in the car when I bought a 72 Centurion with a blown motor, go figure. But now I have a blown motor to rebuild
just a crank shaft away.
 
Oh yeah, to note, putting the 200R4 in required no, I repeat NO modifications or anything, it was a straight swap, just have to ignore the shift indicator being slightly off, and I had the torque converter lock up modified to lock automatically in fourth gear.
 
Radal,

Fill me in what is the 3.8 out of and what is a 200R4, I appreciate the info on the possiblities with a fuel injected motor, that helps in that decision...won't be going there, I don't really want to deal with any smog issues...
 
There are numerous mods you can make to your original 231 V6. Alot of the off road guys have been using this motor for years and making good power with it. Edlebrock offers a intake manifold for it that is a dual plane 4 barrel set up. quite a bit of the Buick 350 stuff will fit with little to no modification. Things like springs rockers, etc. Poston offers various cam kits for the 231, but you really have to watch the lift with any of the small Buick motors. Waht happens is that on the cam profile at full open on the valves you will usually run into spings binding where a numbers of coils will be crushed together. Comp Cams offers cams for this motor to that are matched to the correct springs and lifters. As with any motor a good balancing and blueprinting will do wonders for both the longetiivty and the durability of the motor. I can't stress enough though that you should definitely use a new front cover and a steel thrust plate for the oil pump when it is rebuilt. The original front cover usually takes a pretty good beating internally and most of the time will have deep scoring which all leads to lower than expected oil pressure and cavitation. As stated above the 200R4 is pretty much a direct bolt in. It's the only overdrive tranny that I know of that uses the BOP bolt pattern. Let me know if I can be of help in the parts dept. A carry alot of these parts in stock.
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The 3.8 is the original engine that came in the car in '77, mine is an odd fire, late '77 Skylarks and all '78 and newer 3.8's are even fire. The 200R4 is the designation of the Transmission, Turbo Hydramatic 200R4. Those came in a lot of cars from the 80's. I got mine out of an '83 Buick Lesabre, but they come in nearly all GM's cars from the mid 80's to the early 90's. I think only the Firebirds, Camaros and Trucks came with the larger 700R4, so looking in any other RWD GM car with overdrive would have one.
 
Oh yes, Update on the smog laws in CA, no longer is the rolling 30 year exemption in place, the details are still a little fuzzy but instead it looks like a rolling 30 years of a more lenient smogging, I think the test will be limited to gas cap and tail pipe test (which even for '77 is very broad), so all visual inspection is eliminated. But it would still be 2007 before the 1977 model year would qualify. Just thought I'd add that since I touched on the exemption earlier.
 
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