Nailhead Lifter Noise

C

conroy

Member
OK, I am very mechanical but not a car mechanic. I learn by doing. I have a '64 Riviera with a 425. I have lifter noise that shows up after I have driven several miles on the highway, shut it down, then restart. It is very pronounced until I drive very moderately and it gradually works itself out. I have been told that the oil galleries are plugged up and that I can clean them out myself. Since I have never had a valve cover off, can someone describe to me what I am looking for and how I go about this? Or you can describe to me why my friend doesn't know what he is talking about, and what I big mistake this would be for me to do this myself. I have the chassis service manual, but that doesn't tell me the whole story. I have seen some improvement after using Rislone for a year. I really do have a mechanical head on my shoulders and have spent 40 years working on almost everything else besides a car motor. I plan to have this motor professionally rebuilt, but that is not in my budget for a year or two. Please advise.
 
Nailhead lifter noise

Just remove the valve covers. You should see the valve train along with one hole fore and aft of the assemblies. These are the drain holes that the oil follows back to the drain pan. You should then be able to use "gun cleaning" brushes to open up the oil return galleries. What is happening is that oil is being trapped in the valve cover area because it is not draining back into the oil pan fast enough. Chances are that you are going to find some very bad oil crust especially around the exhaust valves. If I were you, I would pull the valve covers and the galley cover and look for "oil change neglect." You may have to rebuild this engine sooner than anticipated.
 
Nailhead lifter noise

Thanks Sergio. Your comments were very well put and to the point. I realize I am trying to cheat time. I have been very careful about taking it easy on my baby until that time that I can have the engine rebuilt. I will give it a try this weekend. I appreciate your comments.
 
Conroy
get some valve cover gaskets clean all the gunk in the area under the valve covers. Remove the end bolts on the rocker stands and clean them and the hole they go in, the oil supply to the rockers is the gap between the end bolts and the hole. Run high detergent oil, and change it every 3,000 miles. You can remove the intake and valley cover and clean the galley area if you feal like the extra work. You could remove the rockers clean them and check for bent push rods if you want. Get the push rods back in the same lifter and the rockers on the same side they came off.
 
Nailhead lifter noise

Thanks Judd. Good information. I have a question out of ignorance. Per Sergio's comments, I have pictured pushing crud down into the oil pan if using a gun cleaning brush on the galleries. Now I visualize using solvants to clean the areas you mention. Is this the correct way to clean this crud out? Do I simply change oil after this proceedure? I don't put more than 100 miles a year on this engine in the state that it is. The engine actually runs pretty smooth and strong, it just burns a little oil and has this annoying lifter noise. I have been changing oil once every fall and spring. I have belonged to the ROA for several years and never received immediate and detailed replies like this. Thanks much to both of you for the help. This is great.
 
I would remove the rocker shafts/bolts and use solvent (carb cleaner?) and a brush on them, clean the rest with brushes a flat screw driver and rags. Clean the inside of the rocker covers and run it. If you are not running it that much it will at least have oil to the valve train till you rebuild it. I've done this to Ford motors and they would be clean after a few oil changes and some driving miles. I think you have the right idea of what to do.
 
Conroy, The lifter noise could very well be a drain back problem as mentioned. However, it does not necessarily mean your motor needs a complete rebuild. Do you know the history? Has it ever been rebuilt? How many miles on the motor? Before tearing into the motor, I suggest installing a good oil pressure gage and monitoring oil pressure. Put a vacuum gage on the motor and see what it tells you. Do a compression check and see what you have. If you are really ambitious, do a leak down test. This is all much cheaper and easier than doing a rebuild on a sound motor. You bring up a good point about what happens to the crud you break free cleaning the drain holes and internals of an engine. My suggestion would be to use care and get the least amount of crud into the motor in the first place, maybe use an old shop vac to suck up the debris. Consider using a couple of quarts of oil to flush the heads and valley (if you clean it) into the pan, then drain the oil before starting the car. Put in new oil, bring it up to temperture, then change the oil and filter. The cost of 5 quarts of oil may save you from getting your lifters stuck with a piece of crud from the head or valley cover. A report back on what you do and how this all turns out would be interesting and appreciated. Good luck.
 
Oil Changes

Really you should change the oil every 3,000 miles or every 4 months whichever comes first. The reason for this is: condensation can collect in the oil pan, as the oil is not being heated to drive off the water you have a greater chance of sludge formation. This leads to clogged passages, lifters and filters.

Just my 2 cents.

Buicks make TORQUE :shield:

Randy Black
 
Mottrodder, I like your ideas for flushing the engine. I have a numbers matching engine with 146,000 miles on it. I have known the previous owner for many years, who recieved fairly good documentation on the car when he bought it, and passed it on to me. He owned the car for 10 years. There are no indications that the engine was ever rebuilt. In fact there is every indication that it has not. From the looks of the pan on the garage floor, every gasket and seal is leaking, including the tranny. The guy I bought it from had the engine detailed in place. At a glance it doesn't look to bad under the hood. When I accelerate suddenly, the old girl leaves a moderate trail of blue smoke. A couple of times on start-up or when she is idling for a long time, the right (passenger side) tail pipe will begin to pass an alarming amount of blue smoke. I don't mean a cloud, but very noticable. This will then subside when driving moderately in the city. The lifter noise is also coming from the right side, either from #1 or #3 cylinder. As I mentioned before, the noise is all but gone (I credit Rislone) unless I drive it on the highway at speed. All-in-all most of the time the engine starts and runs smooth and under average city driving there is no indication of burning oil or noisey lifters.
Randy, your point about 3 month oil changes is well taken. It really doesn't cost that much, it seems a little extreme to change oil that often for 100 miles a year. Here in Illinois a driving year for my Riviera is April through October, more or less. Probably all the more reason to fight condensation.

I purchased a gun cleaning kit tonight. I plan on diving in tomorrow. I will report back on my progress.
 
Well I had a lot of leaves to rake today, but I did manage to remove the right valve cover and rocker arm assembly. OH MY GOD! I never imagined it would be THAT bad. Not that I have anything to compare to, but it was like looking into the bowels of hell. The sludge is a dark silver/grey color. At its worst, about a quarter inch thick in places. I started scraping the worst of it out. Bought some parts cleaning brushes and kerosene. I have some of that fancy environmentally friendly cleaner, but it just seemed right to use kerosene on a 1964 vintage. Any problem with that? In the midst of the sludge there were pieces of some type of washer. Although I did not examine them that carefully, I laid them aside to see if I can figure out what they were. It looks like there are enough pieces for two complete washers. They are a little odd in that there is a concentric ridge about midway in the circumfrance. They almost look like an odd thrust washer or maybe a keeper for the valve cover bolts. Any ideas?
 
Conroy, Thanks for the update. That is how we learn from other people's experiences without getting dirty. I think the "washer" pieces you found are the remains of valve seals. This is a good sign as the blue smoke may very well be cured by replacing the seals. Since you stated in your original post that you are somewhat new to the game, I hope you don't think any of us responders are talking down to you. You can replace the valve seals without removing the heads. It is some work but not a big deal. I suggest you buy a motor manual. Most auto swap meets have a guy that is selling old Chilton or similar manuals. Most book stores carry some kind as well. Around here, old manuals seem to go for $25 to $40 or so. Get one that covers your year. These manuals have all the specs for your motor plus general information on repairs and interpreting things like compression and vacuum readings. Regarding using kerosene: I suggest not running the motor with the crud/kerosene in the motor. After your clean out, flush as I mentioned in my original post. After a good under the valve cover clean out (both sides) and new valve seals (also both sides) you may be pleasantly surprised and find that you solved your problems. You may be tempted to pull the valley cover and clean there also. You have to weigh the possible good against the possible harm (crud in the lifters or oil pump screen). I suggest not doing it unless you think you see some symptoms. Good luck
 
I had a similar problem in a different model Buick one time and couldn't locate the problem. After talking with a bunch of other Riv owners about it, one of them came up with a service memo about the oil pick up tube. I didn't read the memo, I was just told it existed. I think it was for engines in the early 70's. It could apply to your situation. The tube apparently could work itself loose where it connects to the block and when the engine got into a higher RPM mode, the pump would start sucking air into the tube from the place it worked loose rather than pull the oil from the crankcase. When running a low speeds this wouldn't occur, but at the higher RPM's, the lifters would collapse from a lack of oil.
 
I dont think the Nailheads have any removable oil dip stick tube to fall off just a hole in the block? I know 53 to 56 motors don't.
 
Mottrodder, talk to me as if I am ignorant, you will probably be right. I have accepted all of the comments as very usefull. Now that I am in the engine, I am committed. I plan to remove both valve covers, carb, and valley cover. After I have seen the crud, it can't be any better elswhere. I have the service manual for 1964. You know the 2" thick book that covers everything. Are you refering to a different service manual? I am a little concerned about breaking loose so much crud and what is going to happen to it. I plan to very carefully drain and replace the oil and filter several times after I finish. I also just ordered a can of POR Buick Green engine paint. I am going to assume that when I get done the engine will be running better AND look better. I think I attached a photo of the focus of my attention.
 
Conroy, Thanks for the picture. Your Riv is stunning, absolutely beautiful. I think your manual should cover the items I mentioned. I have some Ford manuals, and some Chilton manuals, and they all have general knowledge and general repair sections. You should be able to pick up a lot of good basic information. Regarding your symptoms, one of the later threads suggested that the oil pick up tube on the oil pump may be loose and starving the pump. This is a possibility, but probably a very rare one. If your engine is really crudded up, the screen on the oil pump may be partially blocked. If your upper clean job does not cure your problems, you may wind up pulling the pan, cleaning the inside of the pan, and also cleaning the oil pick up screen. My approach to situations such as your is to investigate, diagnose, and start with the least expensive and easiest possiblilites. One nice thing about nailheads is that you don't have to drain the radiator or remove the distributor to remove the intake manifold. Be sure you clean the oil passages inside the rocker arm shafts and the holes to the rockers themselves. Be very careful that you get the shaft assemblies reassembled exactly as they came apart and that they are reinstalled on the same side. That front pedestal with the oversized hole is critical. New valve seals are probaby in order as well. Keep in touch.
 
Mottrodder, I really appreciate your thoughts on this. With all the things I have going on right now, I know this project may drag out. I will continue to update as I make progress. There may be some time between posts, but I will keep everyone posted. Thanks again.
 
Having Been And Still Am A Buick Engine Builder For 35 Plus Years I Feel Confident To Agree With The Advice Given As To The Cause Being Oil Starvation As Reguards The Oil Pick-up Screen Being Cloged With Sludge And Carbon. The Memo About Screen Loosness Aplies To 350 Engines About 68-70 As I Remember. Unless Your Engine Is A 66 Only... There Are No Valve Stem Seals Used! I Know This Seams Strange But Buick Never Used Seals Until 66 On The Last Year Of The Nailhead. I Think It Was For A Little Cleaner Emissions. This Is Not To Say Someone May Have Done A Valve Job Years Ago And Machined The Guides For Seals. As For The Amount Of Crud And Sludge In Your Engine, Sounds Like Many Years Of Penzoil Use. Rislone Has Always Been The Best Cure For That Brand Of Oil. Hope This Helps Until You Can Pull The Engine And Do It All.
 
Thanks for your advice Alan. Since my last post I have ordered new gaskets, and valve stem seals from Cars, Inc. The valve stem seals were listed for 1963-1965 401 and 425. You can't prove it by me, all I know is what I read. I like the work ethic of starting with the easiest and working toward the more difficult. I am still hoping that when I am done with the upper part of the engine, it will postpone the inevitable rebuild. If it doesn't then I will tackle dropping the pan. It is obvious to me that what I am doing now would need to be done regardless. I feel as though I have nothing to lose, and an education to gain. Today I ordered a valve spring compresser and air hold fitting set. I'll let you know how stupid I feel after I remove the valve springs and find no place to put seals :confused: I worked on cleaning up the rocker arm assembly and the area around the valves, along with the oil gallies. I really hope my documentation might be useful to others who might have the same limited experience as I.
 
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Progress Report

Since my last post I have continued (slowly :clonk: ) to clean the right side valve train. I have discovered the hollow rocker arm shaft to be full of chunks of crude, the same chunks that have obviously flaked off of the valve cover. I have wire brushed the inside surface of the valve cover. I soaked the shaft in kerosene for several days, then blew out all the oiling holes with my air tool. I have also found that the rear oil galley, that terminates in the rear rocker pedestal bolt hole is also plugged up. I have filled it with kerosene and am letting it soak until I have time this weekend to continue. It seems to me that these combined restrictions could have been enough to create inadequate oiling, leading to excessive lifter noise. I will continue on this weekend. Thanks to everyone for their ideas and support.
 
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