455 for 430?

Ryan474

Ryan474

Active Member
Hey guys I have found unfortunately after solving my ignition issues that my 430 bored .30 over has massive blow by. Going to strip down and hope a new set a ring will work better. Not sure what the guy did that “ rebuilt” my motor did but not too happy. But on the other hand if the engine is indeed toasted i need to find a new short block. Will any buick 455 work and i Can use most the 430 parts? Camshaft, crank, water pump, oil pump? If I’m going to use a 455 block i would put edelbrock heads and intake on it.

Thanks Ryan


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I wouldn't give up on the 430 yet. Find out why it has excessive blow by. The crank, rods, camshaft, timing cover and oil pump will work in a 455. Water pump will work as long as you use the 430 pulleys. The 430 oils the valve train through the head and block, the 455 uses different lifters, hollow push rods and rocker arms. You can use the 430 rockers with hybrid push rods.
 
tom telesco said:
Just a question here. Didn't the early '70 455's oil through the head & NOT the pushrods???

Tom T.
Click to expand...
I kinda thought you may be right, but looking at my parts book, it shows the same push rod for all 455s, 70-75, so maybe not.
 
No, all 455 engines oiled through the push rods. The passenger side hole in the 455 was eliminated. A quote from Jim Weise's oil mods thread about plugging the driver's side hole in the 455 block,

"When first developed, the 400/430 motors oiled the rockers thru two holes in the block, one in each deck surface, to corresponding holes in the heads. When the factory went to pushrod oiling in 1970, they eliminated the hole in the passenger side of the engine, but had to keep the one in the driver side, as this hole, on the other end of it, is the hole that allows oil to feed to the driver main galley, across the front cam bearing. Since drill bits make straight holes, we end up with a pressurized oil hole at the deck, that head gasket has to seal. No real problem with that at 45psi, but when you push the oil pressures up to 75+, it can leak oil out the head gasket."
 
Ok guys I did compression dry and wet test on my 430. Cylinders 5-7 have bad rings from what im seeing on my tests. Cylinder 6 seems to have a leaking valve in the head from doing a leak down test.
Now that i pulled the motor I’ m going to go ahead and do the oiling mods to the block. After oil mods it will go to machine shop and go over block before I build the motor. When I go back together with the motor i am going to do aluminum heads. Just not sure I want to pony up the extra 2k roughly to go with the TA stage 1 vs the edelbrock.
I guess does anyone have any input on this? Of course i would like some more HP but how much difference between brands of heads? I also want to keep stock air cleaner as well.
Has anyone done the TA heads with aluminum intake as well and been able to keep stock air cleaner? I would just hate to not use that sweet looking air cleaner aka the starwars!
Thanks Ryan


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Ryan474 said:
Ok guys I did compression dry and wet test on my 430. Cylinders 5-7 have bad rings from what im seeing on my tests. Cylinder 6 seems to have a leaking valve in the head from doing a leak down test.
Now that i pulled the motor I’ m going to go ahead and do the oiling mods to the block. After oil mods it will go to machine shop and go over block before I build the motor. When I go back together with the motor i am going to do aluminum heads. Just not sure I want to pony up the extra 2k roughly to go with the TA stage 1 vs the edelbrock.
I guess does anyone have any input on this? Of course i would like some more HP but how much difference between brands of heads? I also want to keep stock air cleaner as well.
Has anyone done the TA heads with aluminum intake as well and been able to keep stock air cleaner? I would just hate to not use that sweet looking air cleaner aka the starwars!
Thanks Ryan


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Click to expand...
The Edelbrock aluminum heads are cheaper to buy. They use Chevy style rockers, so if you want roller rocker arms, that is also cheaper, much cheaper. The Buick shaft mounted roller rockers are very expensive. The Edelbrock heads do not flow as good out of the box as TA heads, and they do not look as stock as the TA heads. They are still a vast improvement over factory cast iron heads. Invest in as much porting as you can. That is the secret to power, head flow. If you buy the Edelbrock heads, invest some of the money you save in porting them. I believe there are CNC porting programs for them.

www.buyracingparts.com

CNC Port Customer Supplied Edelbrock Heads

Performer RPM Buick- CNC PORTED These are CNC ported versions of Edelbrock's 60049 cylinder heads for 455 Buick Using customer supplied heads. Your heads are disassembled, fully CNC ported including the chambers, given a competition Valve Job, decked, fully cleaned and reassembled using the...
www.buyracingparts.com

If you want to keep the stock air cleaner, the Edelbrock Performer intake will let you do that.
 
Thanks for the info Larry! Does anyone have a set of edelbrocks on their buick that could post a picture so I could see how they look on the motor ?
And maybe someone has some TA’s on their Buick they could share a picture of two?


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TA has pictures of both heads on their website

TA Stage1SE heads,


Edelbrock heads,


Here are some pictures of the Edelbrock heads from V8buick,

20210720_185452.jpg
20210720_185316.jpg
Here are some pictures of my TA Stage1SE heads,
TA4.JPG
IMG_0833.JPG
If you look between the spark plugs, you'll see the aluminum heads completely cover the block deck. That is one of the tip offs to aluminum heads. Stock heads are scalloped in that location and you can see part of the deck.
StockTypeHead.JPG
TA now markets Stage1SE heads dubbed sleeper heads. They have a scallop to make them look more like iron heads,
StreetSleeper head.jpg
 
Thanks for the pictures! What’s the deal with the other website? More users?

Ryan


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Ryan474 said:
Thanks for the pictures! What’s the deal with the other website? More users?

Ryan


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Click to expand...
Way more users, and way more traffic. It's night and day different. With regard to the questions you are asking, there is way more information.
 
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I can tell you, if you want to run the starwars air cleaner you must stick with the original intake manifold. I had an Edelbrock Performer on Edelbrock heads, and there was not clearance for the starwars intake. The heads don't make a difference in the height, it is the manifold that causes the problem. I looked at cutting the manifold but decided it would not work and built a different air cleaner. I later went back to the cast iron manifold and heads.

Before you start dumping money into heads etc. you should decide what level you want to build. If you think you want super performance, do you want to drive it anywhere? A car that ends up at 8-10 miles to the gallon may not get used much. Myself, I like to feel good about going 3-400 miles.

If you are not looking to spend a lot of time on the track, and just want a car that will lite them up any time you want, you can do it quite nicely with cast heads and intake and keep your Starwars air cleaner. You have to decide what your objectives are. As you build for more performance and horsepower you will need transmission and other driveline modifications to use the horsepower in a efficient and dependable way.

If your car is an original GS400, you will also have header issues. I have purchase two sets of headers that are supposed to fit the '67 GS455, one set said minor mods may be required, the other set said they will fit! They were both purchased from the best know Buick suppliers. The set with mods. may be required needed the front cross member cleared on the passenger side, and the steering moved. The other set that was supposed to fit required on the cross member notched for clearance. I ended up running the manifolds with thermal coatings. The biggest reason headers do not fit on the 1967 GS400s is that all the headers are probably patterned off GS340s, Skylarks and Specials that have had a 455 installed. When you install a 455 in a '67 Special or Skylark the pads you purchase place the engine about 3/4' back and 1/2-5/8" lower (or something like that). This would have eliminated the notch in the cross member, and improved the steering problem, but I think the steering side of the one set would have still had a problem.
 
Bob,
Yea not looking to do any track runs except maybe when they have the yearly car show there they let you do a few runs if a guy wanted to. I just like the idea of possibly running aluminum heads and intake for a bit more ponies and also lighting up the front end. I suppose now that I think about it. I’m wanting to do the oiling mod upgrades, including plugging the port in the block. Im guessing a guy could do the oiling mods and use stock heads and use the oiling push rods? Am I correct on this or do I need to leave the oiling port open on the block if I use stock iron heads?

Ryan


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The Edelbrock Performer works with the 70-72 GS dual Snorkel air cleaner. The intake is a little taller, but not much. It just squishes the foam seals a bit more. The 67 Star Wars air cleaner is something else. It looks cool, but for performance, it would just be a restriction anyway. It's hard to make under 500 HP with good flowing aluminum heads. So you have some choices to make.
 
The oiling mods are too easy to do not to. Yes to pushrod oiling. If you use you 400 or 430 pan, check your pan clearance against the 5/8 pickup tube.

I know people talk about weight when considering aluminum heads and intakes, but dothey drive around , and are much more likekywith a 1/4 tank of gas or tell there passengers to get out before they perform? I know I don,t. If you go with the aluminum heads, and you can with your Star Wars Air Cleaner, make sure your cooling system is good, because aluminum heads warp real easy.

As Larry has mentioned, once you move to the newer models there is more hood clearance which makes low rise manifolds a much more viable option. With our GS400 it is very tight, so you don,t see the Stat Wars Air Cleaner on more modified .67s, and are much more likely to see cowl induction hoods etc..
 
Bob said:
I know people talk about weight when considering aluminum heads and intakes, but do they drive around , and are much more likekywith a 1/4 tank of gas or tell there passengers to get out before they perform? I know I don,t. If you go with the aluminum heads, and you can with your Star Wars Air Cleaner, make sure your cooling system is good, because aluminum heads warp real easy.
Click to expand...
Bob,
When OEM first started using aluminum heads, there were several problems with them. Yes, they could warp if overheated, and if you weren't careful, you could strip threads on them especially spark plugs. That was then.

Today, the alloys used are vastly superior. I bought my TA heads in 2006. I first bolted them on my existing all iron engine. It was a 462, 9.4:1 compression with a KB118 cam, MT headers, and Quadrajet. Switch Pitch trans, 3.42 gears, and 2 1/2" exhaust. It ran a best of 13.22 @ 101 MPH in a car that weighed 4200 lbs. I bought the TA Stage1SE aluminum heads from Greg Gessler with his level 2 porting. They flowed 313/225 @ .550 lift. They were milled .040, and bolting them on increased compression to 10.4:1. With an Edelbrock Performer intake, the car went immediately into the mid 12's at 107 MPH. Added an SP1 single plane intake Holley 1000 DP carb and 3.73 gears. Car went a best of 12.11 at almost 112 MPH. By that time, I had also added a Gear Vendors overdrive for highway driving. Driving down to Cecil County Dragway in Maryland, a 3 hour trip(170 miles) for me, the car got 16-17 MPG with the Quadrajet. The Holley was always 1 1/2 - 2 tenths, and 2 MPH faster on the track, so I would just bolt it on and off at the track.

Around 2010, I commissioned Jim Weise of Tri Shield Performance to build me a shortblock. In 2011, I unbolted the aluminum heads, and SP1, and sent them to him for my new engine. The iron heads and Performer went back on, and I drove the car like that for a year while I waited for Jim to build and Dyno my new engine. While there, Jim did some additional porting to the TA heads, and they now flowed 334/250 @ .600 lift. Jim built me a zero deck motor with 10.5:1 compression, a hydraulic roller cam, and used the 1000DP car to Dyno test the motor. It made 602 HP/ 589 TQ, and idled at 800 in gear. In 2012, I swapped the motor in, and the car went mid 11's consistently on both carburetors. It was always faster with the Holley. By now, I had a full 3" X pipe exhaust with Magnaflow mufflers. It went a best of 11.54 @ 116 MPH at a race weight of 4100 lbs. The engine runs great on 93 pump gas, and despite the ethanol fuel, it still gets an easy 15 MPG on the highway. I can drive it anywhere, and it has great street manners.

My point is, I have had these heads on 2 different motors for 17 years. They have been nothing but reliable with zero problems. I have a 21 year old Griffin aluminum radiator, and the engine runs right at the 180* stat rating, no matter the outside temperature. Once at the track, I broke my fan belt on a run. I always immediately look at my gauges in the shut down after the beams. I looked down on that run and watched the gauge rounding 220*. By the time I got it on the return road, it was close to 240* as I shut it down. By the time I got towed to the pits, it was back to 180*. Put another belt on, and made 2-3 more runs. Didn't spill a drop of coolant, and drove the car home from Maryland. The aluminum heads today are very reliable. I change the plugs once a year, and always with the motor cold. I use NGK plugs exclusively. They have plated threads, so no anti seize is necessary. Never a problem. No one should be afraid to use the aluminum heads made today.
 
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Larry, From a performance aspect I agree with you 100%, any of the aluminum heads on the market will increase performance over cast iron.
And I expect materials used in the casting is evolving. Your experience in higher performance is beyond mine. I am a small town guy and everything happens at least 70-80 miles away, what is good for me may not be for everyone. I generally stay to a street performance, and all my cars have a/c. I have had engines that I had to nurse for 16 miles to the gallon in my younger days (I am not an old fart, (which also makes a difference in my opinions)), but now I prefer to try for more mileage.

I could defend my suggestion re overheating aluminum heads, with your car sounds quite adequately cooled and despite your heating event, your heads have survived, or as you suggest the materials are just that much better. I don't get enough exposure to the aluminum head failures in high performance. I know I do surfacing, so the heads I see are having problems and most of them are aluminum, but as you say, they are also older, most new vehicles do not have heating problems. I do see people getting exited, building engines and installing them without enough consideration for their cooling systems etc.

I think your points are valid, and thank you for making them:).
 
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