1968 PP Code Engine Questions

[Bueep]

Hey All,

Researching a Buick V8 that's was retrofitted into a '66 Jeep Super Wagoneer (would have had an AMC 327 4-barrel OE) in the very distant past. The engine Code is PP-322 and the engine number is 187111695. I know from your references here that PP is a '68 350 4-barrel. I don't know what the "322" suffix means. There was a faint hope that this was an experimental installation done by Kaiser Jeep (it's a VERY early production '66 Super) but that engine code kinda discounts that idea, as you would thing it would be an earlier engine, perhaps with experimental or KJ markings. Is there anything to be learned from that "325" or the 18711695? That 350 looks to be a pretty potent engine and it fits in the Wagoneer engine compartment very nicely.. as did the 2-barrel 350s that were installed for a couple of years starting in 1968. Many thanks and apologies for the Jeep subject matter.
.
Jim Allen

 

[bob k. mando]

nah, we like finding out about weird Buick history.

1968 is the first year of Buick 350ci production. the most potent Buick 350 ever was the 'SP' code from 1970 which was rated at 315hp. compression and hp numbers fall off quickly after that.

the '322' is probably the date code for the engine production date, which would be the 322nd day of the year or late November production.

agreed that it would be pretty tough for Kaiser to be using a 1968 engine for development in a 1966 model production vehicle.

 

[Bueep]

Bob- Many thanks for the info.

FYI, by the end of '68, KJ had already developed the Buick V8 installation for introduction into the SJ line (Wagoneers and Gladiators) in '68 as stocks of AMC 327 engines ran out. The Super Wagoneer in question is the 7th built (in '65 for the '66 MY) so it's doubtful KJ was even dreaming about Buick 350 V8s then... because at that point, those engines did not yet exist (except as prototype/test engines at Buick). The fanciful theory was that, perhaps, this #7 Super was retained at KJ as a test mule and the installation was done later as a test. My goal was to test that theory and given the evidence of the engine and production date, there is zero evidence to support it. Still, it apparently makes for a nice and STRONG running Super Wagoneer, though, regrettably, not an original one. KJ never opted to use the four barrel version of the 350 in any Jeep, though the AMC 327 used ONLY in the Super Wagoneer only was a four-barrel (the rest were two barrel).

Anyway, glad you Buick guys were here to help answer the question!

Fully Buick story: It would seem that you can't be a rural mail carrier in Putnam County, Ohio, unless you drive a Buick. An inordinate number of the rural carriers around here drive Buicks from the late '90s and early '00s.

 

[TODD]

That engine looks like it has had an interesting history. Buick would have stamped the last 8 characters of the car's VIN on a machined pad on the left front face of the block, near the head. The 187111695 does not relate to any Buick VIN though.

Could not relate it to any Jeep VINs of the era by using old NADA Used Car Value Guides from the late '60s. Jeepsters with 8701 and 8705 model nos looked to be close. Nothing popped up for a model 8711.

According to old Chilton repair manuals, Buick 350s used in Jeeps had a three-letter engine production code such as KPO for '68 2-bbl models. By that logic, one would expect this unit to have a KPP code.

As expected the Buick part number for the 2-bbl intake manifold 1231379 shows up in the '72 Jeep parts price list. The 4-bbl manifold 1231380 does not appear.

So maybe it was a regular replacement engine as sold by the dealerships. The '68 Buick Master Parts list printed 12/67 (near the time this one was built) shows complete 350 engines with carb in 2-bbl/4-bbl and manual/automatic transmission configurations. The 4-bbl auto part no was 1395914. While the 4-bbl manual was 1395913.

Still these part nos do not resemble the number found on the block. A Buick service bulletin to dealers that year indicates replacement engines have their own serial numbers for tracking purposes. But the numbering system is not explained. Don't think a replacement engine of this era has turned up on this site yet.

Does the transmission look like it came with the 350? By '68 Buick was stamping partial VINs on the transmissions. We can examine those numbers to see if anything else comes to light. Similarly, the carb and distributor part numbers, if original, may prove interesting.

The idea of a 2-year old test mule running around with a new engine seems plausible. With few annual model changes around then, a new vehicle every year may not have been necessary. It would have saved money for the smaller manufacturers. It would also throw off snoopers trying to get the scoop on possible future models. Maybe it's been an Ohio car for its entire life since being built there?

The very low serial number adds to the possibility of being a test vehicle. Up to 1965, Buick and some other GM divisions started off their regular vehicle production serial numbers at 1001. A few experimental cars that had serial numbers and have survived show numbers like 0993 etc.

P.S.: Would you be the famous Jim Allen, author of numerous books and articles on Jeeps and 4-Wheeling?

 

[bob k. mando]

Fully Buick story: It would seem that you can't be a rural mail carrier in Putnam County, Ohio, unless you drive a Buick. An inordinate number of the rural carriers around here drive Buicks from the late '90s and early '00s.


the Buick Series II v6. good fuel mileage, decent power and a zillion of them produced by GM. which means excellent parts availability.

also, what part of Putnam County is *not* rural?

 

[Bueep]

That engine looks like it has had an interesting history. Buick would have stamped the last 8 characters of the car's VIN on a machined pad on the left front face of the block, near the head. The 187111695 does not relate to any Buick VIN though.

Could not relate it to any Jeep VINs of the era by using old NADA Used Car Value Guides from the late '60s. Jeepsters with 8701 and 8705 model nos looked to be close. Nothing popped up for a model 8711.

According to old Chilton repair manuals, Buick 350s used in Jeeps had a three-letter engine production code such as KPO for '68 2-bbl models. By that logic, one would expect this unit to have a KPP code.

As expected the Buick part number for the 2-bbl intake manifold 1231379 shows up in the '72 Jeep parts price list. The 4-bbl manifold 1231380 does not appear.

So maybe it was a regular replacement engine as sold by the dealerships. The '68 Buick Master Parts list printed 12/67 (near the time this one was built) shows complete 350 engines with carb in 2-bbl/4-bbl and manual/automatic transmission configurations. The 4-bbl auto part no was 1395914. While the 4-bbl manual was 1395913.

Still these part nos do not resemble the number found on the block. A Buick service bulletin to dealers that year indicates replacement engines have their own serial numbers for tracking purposes. But the numbering system is not explained. Don't think a replacement engine of this era has turned up on this site yet.

Does the transmission look like it came with the 350? By '68 Buick was stamping partial VINs on the transmissions. We can examine those numbers to see if anything else comes to light. Similarly, the carb and distributor part numbers, if original, may prove interesting.

The idea of a 2-year old test mule running around with a new engine seems plausible. With few annual model changes around then, a new vehicle every year may not have been necessary. It would have saved money for the smaller manufacturers. It would also throw off snoopers trying to get the scoop on possible future models. Maybe it's been an Ohio car for its entire life since being built there?

The very low serial number adds to the possibility of being a test vehicle. Up to 1965, Buick and some other GM divisions started off their regular vehicle production serial numbers at 1001. A few experimental cars that had serial numbers and have survived show numbers like 0993 etc.

P.S.: Would you be the famous Jim Allen, author of numerous books and articles on Jeeps and 4-Wheeling?

What you stated about the KJ vs Buick serial numbers is true, though the Jeep manual indicates only two letter, a "K" an one of these four "PRST" for the year, followed by the day of the year. I am most interested in your interpretation of the other number, 187111695. I don't have any Buick specific manuals and my generic Motors or Chiltons (from many eras) do not indicate anything. MY Jeep books form the era do not indicate anything regarding a number in that spot on the block. That number does not relate to anything Jeep either as far as I can tell, but I will look into it more since it seems to make no sense in the Buick world either.

While there is a remote possibility #7 was kept as a test mule for two years, I do not give the possibility much weight given what I know about how they generally operated in that era. Plus there are absolutely no indications of it being a mule. Unless there are strong indications of something like that, I don't operate on any assumptions. The Jeep is not mine and resides in Texas. It's history is unclear. This is research for a story because I am the Jim Allen you mention. Thank God I am NOT famous!

 

[Bueep]

Fully Buick story: It would seem that you can't be a rural mail carrier in Putnam County, Ohio, unless you drive a Buick. An inordinate number of the rural carriers around here drive Buicks from the late '90s and early '00s.


the Buick Series II v6. good fuel mileage, decent power and a zillion of them produced by GM. which means excellent parts availability.

also, what part of Putnam County is *not* rural?

You must know this place!

 

[Buford26]

Any chance you can post a picture of the engine serial number? I suspect it might be 48Z111695, which would make sense from a Buick perspective. I've attached a picture of a similar engine number stamp from another 1968 Fremont car (48Z101820).

48Z111695
4 = Buick
8 = 1968 model year
Z = built at Fremont, Ca
111695 = sequential number, range for Fremont was 100001 to 120752 for V8 cars


I don't have a picture of a 1968 replacement engine, but I've attached one from a 1969 car, decodes as follows:

B9E61802
B = Buick
9 = 1969 model year
E = Engine plant
61802 = sequential number


I've also attached a couple pictures from 1970-1971 replacement engines as well.

http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/factory-replacement-block.167034/
http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/help-with-what-i-bought-vin-codes-and-etc.317301/

 

[bob k. mando]

when Van Wert is your metropolitan area ... you're rural.

 

[Bueep]

Any chance you can post a picture of the engine serial number? I suspect it might be 48Z111695, which would make sense from a Buick perspective. I've attached a picture of a similar engine number stamp from another 1968 Fremont car (48Z101820).

48Z111695
4 = Buick
8 = 1968 model year
Z = built at Fremont, Ca
111695 = sequential number, range for Fremont was 100001 to 120752 for V8 cars


I don't have a picture of a 1968 replacement engine, but I've attached one from a 1969 car, decodes as follows:

B9E61802
B = Buick
9 = 1969 model year
E = Engine plant
61802 = sequential number


I've also attached a couple pictures from 1970-1971 replacement engines as well.

http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/factory-replacement-block.167034/
http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/help-with-what-i-bought-vin-codes-and-etc.317301/

Thank you Professor for that great Buick Engine Number 101 lesson!

I'll see about an engine # pic and it's entirely possible the owner of the Jeep in question misread the numbers. I will ask him to have a second look, if not take a pic. This information is really adding to my understanding of these engines and this era when Jeep used them.

Do you think this board may have some help on the Buick 225 V6 that KJC used? I have conflicting information on whether Jeep actually took the tooling and built the engine or just let GM/Buick continue to built the engines.



Here is an overall shot I was given at the start of this research.

 

[bob k. mando]

the 225ci v6 shares bore size ( 3.750" ), stroke ( 3.400" ) and deck height with the 300ci v8s and ended nominal GM production applications with the 1967 model year.

the 231ci v6 keeps the 300 deck height and stroke ... but expands the bore size to the Buick 350s 3.800". the problem is that the 231ci ( Odd Fire, the Even Fire with split throw crank pins came even later ) wasn't introduced until the 1975 model year.

Buick 6 cylinder applications from 1968-74 were handled entirely by the Chevrolet 250ci L-6 ... so you wouldn't really think GM was running the Buick v6 production line JUST as a supply channel for Kaiser, given that Kaiser/AMC was placing these engines through the 1971 model year. and, of course, AMC got their panties all twisted up having model lines that were using GM engines so they quickly substituted AMC engines wherever possible after they bought Kaiser out.

so what i suspect happened is that Kaiser was buying production off of the 1966-67 GM model year run, in which Buick was still placing the 225ci v6
...
and then bought the tooling in 1968 when Buick went to the 350 for all small block applications and the Chevy for 6cyl applications.

this would explain why you're getting conflicting stories. because Kaiser really would have done BOTH things, depending on the model year.

and, supposedly, GM bought the v6 tooling *back* from AMC when they fired v6 production back up in 1975.

https://jalopnik.com/5378755/engine-of-the-day-buick-v6

 

[Bueep]

Any chance you can post a picture of the engine serial number? I suspect it might be 48Z111695, which would make sense from a Buick perspective. I've attached a picture of a similar engine number stamp from another 1968 Fremont car (48Z101820).

48Z111695
4 = Buick
8 = 1968 model year
Z = built at Fremont, Ca
111695 = sequential number, range for Fremont was 100001 to 120752 for V8 cars


I don't have a picture of a 1968 replacement engine, but I've attached one from a 1969 car, decodes as follows:

B9E61802
B = Buick
9 = 1969 model year
E = Engine plant
61802 = sequential number


I've also attached a couple pictures from 1970-1971 replacement engines as well.

http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/factory-replacement-block.167034/
http://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/help-with-what-i-bought-vin-codes-and-etc.317301/

OK, the owner has confirmed the number (no pic) to be 48Z111695 as Buford26 surmised. Does that sequential number correspond to the car VIN, or is it merely an engine production sequential? Going by the day code (322) and the range, whether it's car or engine production, it seems to me that would be a late year build, nearly into the '69 model year. Agree?

None of this adds weight to the theory that it's being some sort of an experimental installation. If it corresponds to a car VIN, that pretty much kills it. If an engine sequential, the date works against it. If it was part of an experiment with a 4-barrel engine...unlikely to have been done on a '66 vehicle... they would most likely have used a current production 1414D or 1414X (1414D Super Wagoneer or 1414X Custom Special... and the Super Wagoneer variant was on it's way out at this point replaced with the similar-but-downgraded Custom Special), and since they were already buying engines from Buick, they would likely have just bought a new engine from Buick, probably one with a replacement number on it. Or it would have been marked in some other way for KJC.

Again, all you Buick "Nailheads" ( : < ), many thanks for taking the time and effort to help me with this!

 

[bob k. mando]

if Dennis Manner is still kicking around, you want to get the question to him. he was intimately involved in most of the awesome Buick engine stuff from the 1960s to the 80s.

 

[Buford26]

8Z111695 would be the last 8 digits of the donor car VIN, so just an engine out of a production car. Closest cars I have to it are 444398Z110954 with a build date of 02D (fourth week of February 1968) based on the cowl tag, 444378Z111007 with a build date of March 1968 based on the POP, and 446678Z112822 with a build date of 03C (third week of March 1968) based on the cowl tag. The engine date code is not a straight day of the year. It goes on some two year cycle and the highest value I've seen is 778. Engines were usually built about a month before the car. The model year usually began in the beginning of August.

 

[Bueep]

8Z111695 would be the last 8 digits of the donor car VIN, so just an engine out of a production car. Closest cars I have to it are 444398Z110954 with a build date of 02D (fourth week of February 1968) based on the cowl tag, 444378Z111007 with a build date of March 1968 based on the POP, and 446678Z112822 with a build date of 03C (third week of March 1968) based on the cowl tag. The engine date code is not a straight day of the year. It goes on some two year cycle and the highest value I've seen is 778. Engines were usually built about a month before the car. The model year usually began in the beginning of August.

Veeeerry EEEEterrestink!

July August is when most manufacturers started model year production, so I was surprised when someone mentioned day 322 of the year.

One last question. Just based on the last eight, is there any way to predict what Buick model this engine might have been in? Did the Fremont plant produce all models or were they limited to a particular range of models. Just wondering what model Buick a 350 4-barrel engine was most likely to be in.

Really appreciate the information!

 

[bob k. mando]

i would think that we don't have anything like enough info necessary to narrow it down to a single model. nor would it be available from this engine, alone.

sequential production numbers for Rivs and Electras typically have their own number series separate the all of the other model lines, Rivs starting at 900001 Electras usually starting at 600001(?).

but the standard production sequence ( 100001 and up ) encompasses all the other model lines.

and the PP code engine, while the hottest Buick 350ci available that year, was still available in pretty much every model line except for the Electra ( C Body ), Riv ( E Body ) and Wildcat ( B Body ). the Le Sabre was a full size B Body, but it was Buick's 'entry level' senior car and so could still be had with a small block.

https://www.teambuick.com/reference/years/68/68_engine_number.php


now watch Buford or Todd show up and blow me out of the water with Buick factory documentation ...

 

[Buford26]

I can't narrow it down to a specific model, but in 1968 Fremont only built A-body platform cars, so the Special Deluxe/Skylark/Skylark Custom/GS/Sportwagon series:




https://www.teambuick.com/reference/years/68.php

 

[TODD]

Bob K Mando's data is good and on the mark. The best we can do is build on top of info in preceding posts. The 350-4 was standard only in the GS-350. It was optional in all other intermediates (A bodies) except the GS-400. Gas mileage was not as good as the 350-2. The higher compression ratio of the 350-4 required premium fuel.

Then as stated it was optional on the LeSabre. A popular option for the LeSabre was the "400 package" which included the 350-4 and a Super Turbine 400 (aka TH400) transmission. Included was a 400 nameplate on the rear quarter panels. Onlookers then and now mistakenly thought the car had a 400cid engine.

Without having any documentation for backup, I would say the 350-4 would have appeared most likely in a LeSabre. The large car would have benefitted from the increased acceleration probably more than the intermediates. About 180,000 LeSabres were built which approaches the total of all non-GS400 intermediates at around 214,000.

As for intermediates like the Fremont-built cars, the 350-4 probably showed up more in the premium Skylarks and Sportwagons. Buyers of these cars would have been less concerned with gas mileage and premium fuel than those buying base model Special Deluxes.

 

[TODD]

We struggle here in the forums trying to understand the 3 digits in the engine production code number. The intention is to use it for determining engine build date. Even the Buick documents of the time are in disagreement. Some indicate the number is the day when engine was built. Others (see attached) indicate the number denotes day and shift when built. Documents don't say whether day is a calendar date or a day in the model year of the car.

The factory was constantly admonishing dealers through service bulletin reminders to include the engine production code number on all trouble reports going back to the factory. The factory would then issue notices saying possible upgrades are needed on all engines before code 456 etc. They would also notify dealers of mid-year engine part changes by issuing a bulletin saying something like new valve cover gaskets going into production on engines coded 345 and higher.

There's a more in-depth thread on the topic over in the ID and Decoding forum regarding a '63 LeSabre convertible with engine code JR666. Thankfully Buford26 supplied body plate weekly date codes along with engine production code numbers for several '63 Buicks. I found a few more from cars for sale online. Then all the '63 dealer service bulletins were reviewed for more clues.

One bulletin denotes a running mid-year part change took place on 1/28/63 at engine code 479. A rough model was then constructed using a 3-shift, 5-day a week factory schedule. That means the code digits advance at the rate of 15/week or about 65/month. We know from looking at the data points of the known '63 cars, the code numbers are advancing faster than one per day. By laying out each week on a 1962 and '63 calendar, the body plate week codes along with the known and predicted engine codes overlay each other quite well. But it's still not precise enough to use the engine code number to determine build date.

Most sample cars were built at the Flint, MI plant where the engines were built for all assembly plants. The original poster's car was built in an outlying assembly plant. The model calendar showed his engine a little 'older' than expected if it was a Flint-built car. This would be explained by having to ship the engine from Flint to the outlying plant.

So to use the rough model on your engine, say code 479 was built on 1/28/68. Backing up 10-1/2 weeks (157 production shifts of the code number) would put 322 at the third or fourth week of November '67. Amazingly that's about where Bob K Mando's estimate put it.

 

[TODD]

Here's a dealer service bulletin showing a stud and clip were added to V8 engines starting 11/15/67. If your engine does not have this upgrade, it dates to earlier than 11/15/67. Unfortunately no engine code number is given.

Wonder what 1968 Jeep dealer service bulletins might show?