Ok I have searched but cant seam to find the differance between the water pumps on a car with A/C and without. I have A/C now but will be removing it should I stick with the same pump or switch to the non a/c pump? Whats the differance? :confused:

The difference is how many vanes (blades) the impeller has. The AC pumps have 5, whereas a Non-AC has 3 impeller blades.:thumbsup:

Erik

As a further note the crank & water pump pulley's are different diameters & 2 belt as opposed to 3 belt.

Tom T.

You sure about BOTH diameters Tom? I think I remember the crank pullys being the same diameter, just the extra groove... Now you are going to make me go check again...:clonk:

It seems different people have had different results with using the 5 vane pump on a non-A/C car. Some believe that the high flow pump flows the coolant TOO fast and does not have enough time to dwell throught the system to be efficient.

I'd leave it the way it is for now when you delete your A/C . You can always change out your water pump and pulleys fairly easy later if you find your temps start climbing up on you.

Erik

Yes Erik. The non A/C pumps spin at .9 engine speed while the A/C cars with the smaller crank & larger water pump pulley spins at 1.1. If you try & use an A/C water pump pulley on a non A/C car with the non A/C crank pulley the water pump pulley won't fit as the pulley's will hit each other.

Tom T.

Ok my car is tore down now and I can move the waterpump shaft around about a 1/4 inch. I am amazed that it doesent leak. So I have to replace the pump either way from what Erik is saying i should replace it with the non a/c pump and from Tom is saying I am also going to need both pullys? Can I use the same pullys on the none ac pump or is it going to still spin the pump too fast?
Thanks for the help
JOHN

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380104660798&category=34201&viewitem= I found this pump but I have not yet removed mine anyone know if this is the 401 or 215 Pump? Also could I use the a/c pump with the non a/c pullys to slow it down?

We are, me, doing alot of guessing & assuming here. Is this the '62 LeSabre 4dr??? What year, make & model are we talking about??? Does it have original A/C from the factory or an add-on unit. I wouldn't buy something that's been sitting for who knows how long. You may just end up with the same thing your going through now, again!!!! Maybe worse if the impeller blades wipe out the timing cover (if they haven't already) or the shaft breaks & the fan blades take out the radiator/shroud. Lets figure out EXACTLY what you need before making recommendations & we can go from there.

Tom T.

Ok I have searched but cant seam to find the differance between the water pumps on a car with A/C and without. I have A/C now but will be removing it should I stick with the same pump or switch to the non a/c pump? Whats the differance? :confused:


Since you are removing your A/C you will need the "non A/C" options if you want to do it right.

1. A set of "Non-A/C" 2 grove pulleys.
2. A "Non-A/C" 3 vane water pump (with new gasket).
3. A set of shorter set of V-belts.

The water pump is the easiest part. You have a couple options. First, you can go down to your local Napa and buy one or any other parts warehouses can get either 3 or 5 vane pump for you. The second (and my vote) is to call Tony (aka The Flying Dutchman) at 1(888)595-1110. He can rebuild your water pump either as a 3 vane (or as a 5 vane) to better than factory quality. I wouldn't get one off ebay even if it was free.

The pulleys will be the greater challenge as you will have to beat the bushes to find someone that has the ones you want. Post a "Parts Wanted" ad in the classifieds section, call Carmen, or heck Tom might even have a set or know were there is some available. (I wont tell you I have a set but they are not for sale...) I have only see the 3 grooves being repopped in aluminum but they are usually more desireable. Surely you will be able to find someone that will trade you. I'm surprised no one has come up with a serpentine system yet for the nailhead, or found a compareable size for a different engine that would be close or something like that.

The belts will just be a matter of making a run to the auto parts store. You should be able to use the factory size belts listed, or better yet you can measure what size you need before you go.

Deleting your A/C compressor shouldn't be too hard. Are you going to mount your Alternator where the A/C compressor used to be with the "bar" type bracket? You can probably just cap and plug your bulkhead fittings for the A/C box.

Ok.. Tom... how did I do? Did I miss anything? By the way, did you know Tony is selling the business? :confused: http://www.fdrbp.com/

Erik

Ok a little more info the car is a 62 lesabre 4dr sedan 73000 miles. The A/c in the car is factory, the compresser was in the trunk froze up when i bought the car, already has a alternator on where the compresser should have been, I have to agree with you on the old pump on ebay I am just on a tight budget. Also on a side not my clutch fan blades are all bent to crap and there is not a fan shroud on the car yet. I was planning on installing a flexalite fan that i used to have on my regal and probally a make a fan shroud for it. It sounds as if I need some new pullys.

Ok i have all my parts except a 2 grove water pump pully i got some from a guy that was parting out a 64 but the water pump was a single groove any ever ran 1 belt to the alternator and p/s pump

Yes Erik. The non A/C pumps spin at .9 engine speed while the A/C cars with the smaller crank & larger water pump pulley spins at 1.1. If you try & use an A/C water pump pulley on a non A/C car with the non A/C crank pulley the water pump pulley won't fit as the pulley's will hit each other.

Tom T.

Is there any way of calculating coolant flow with an a/c pump on a non a/c engine, using the non a/c piulley? Will the coolant flow be too fast to be efficient?

'spose you could do a "bucket test" unless you could install an actual flow meter.

Bucket test:

1. Connect hose on outlet of water pump long enough to reach a bucket
2. Fill radiator full and be ready with supplemental water hose
3. Start engine to idle or RPM X (note and maintain consistant RPM).
4. Start stopwatch for a given period of time; say 30 seconds to 1 minute. (depending on size of bucket)
5. Repeat process with other pully arangement and compare flow output.
6. Connect hose as original.

If you know the Termal Dissipation Power rating is of the radiator in question is, you can simply do the math. but the more accurate test would be to simply measure the coolant temperature every few minutes and chart your readings. You will also find that the efficiency of a radiator will rise as the temperatures increase (a curved graph and not a straigh line). But the radiator efficiency is only one piece of the overall performance of the cooling system. That's why the time/temperature test is more of an accurate test. Even your hose size, plumbing fittings, elbows, etc will have an effect on the cooling system performance.

Erik

I ordered a water pump for my '63 LeSabre (401, "410 Wildcat" engine) last week from NAPA. The pump came in today, and I picked it up. It is very light, so I'm assuming it's aluminum...haven't had a chance to round up a magnet to check it). It is also a 5 vane. My LeSabre is non-air conditioned. The parts guy told me that it doesn't matter, and that this is the only pump that he is able to get for the 401. I wanted the 3 vane, but could not find one locally. My old water pump isn't leaking, but is making the "whirring" sound as it is turning, and there is some play in the fan. He told me that he had heard of no problems with running a 5 vane on a car without air conditioning.

I was wondering if anyone else has tried one of these pumps on a non-AC 401? Were there any cooling issues with them? And, if it turns out to be aluminum, do they hold up as well as the original-type pumps? The one I purchaed is new, not rebuilt.

The parts guy is a MORON and doesn't know what he is talking about. My local Napa computer system showed BOTH. I'd be willing to bet the guy has probably never even seen a nailhead!

Ok... so you already bought it. Put it on and you will find out! But before you change it, do the time/Temperature (ambient temp and coolant temp!) test with your existing pump since it is working, then do the same with the 5 vane. Get some good temp readings before and after and write them down. Feel free to share your findings with us!:bana:

Then send your 3 vane to THE FLYING DUTCHMAN in the mean time to have it rebuilt.

Erik

OK, I got the new water pump installed last weekend on my '63 LeSabre. At first, I was a bit worried because the replacement pump that I bought was aluminum...but the pump that was on the car was ALSO aluminum! It has been on the car since 1977! So, I guess they do hold up pretty well.

I had no way of checking temperatures accurately for any difference between the 3 and 5 vane pumps. While I was changing the water pump, I also installed a new 160 degree thermostat, new belts, and new hoses. Everything seems to be working well so far, no leaks, and no overheating problems. I can see no difference so far in running the 5 vane other than a 3 vane. I am going to have my old pump rebuilt though, just in case. It never hurts to have an extra lying around! :thumbsup:

My local napa store told me the 5 vane was the only one available as well please post if you do have a problem i will probally be installing one on mine before the engine goes back in. Yes I know the flying dutchman is the best out there but for now I am balling on a budget and i am afraid that my heater core and transmission rebuild left me broke.