I think my buick hates me....

I finally managed to start my fully rebuilt 430 the other day and found a number of problems that seem to be unexplainable.

It gets really hot really fast for no apparent reason, timing is set at about 8 degrees as it was my mechanic who started it set it at and that's what he recommended ( it starts easy and runs nice so this is confusing)

Oil pressure is pathetic, It gets to about 25psi at 2500rpm which is where I broke the cam in. But at idle its sometimes less than 10psi. This also makes no sense as I did all the oil mods recommended, larger pick up, bored out passages, oil pump backing plate, adjustable regulator. The passenger side head is getting heaps of oil while the drivers side is not which leads to another problem

Large quantities of smoke out the passenger side bank, I would not have thought it could do a ring being so fresh ( rings still havn't been run in yet) its almost like its taking in lots of oil through the pcv valve which is new. PCV used to be in the rear of the intake manifold but i blocked that up and transfered it to the passenger side rocker cover. This seems to be the source of the smoke, is it not legitmate to have the pcv in the rocker cover?

Sorry for asking so many questions but I dont no what to do. With so much money invested in it I would hate to find out its toast before even touching the road...

Getting really hot? Need to know more. During cam break-in, the engine will generate GOBS of heat and I always need to spray the radiator with a hose (air seems to be insufficient). And at idle, they still generate a lot of heat, however the stock clutch fan and a fresh 3- or 4-core radiator should be able to keep it cool even at idle. (If your car has a/c, this will further restrict airflow). Once your car is moving, say 25 MPH, this will help keep that beast cool.

Those oil pressure numbers seem pretty normal to me.

How do you know that one side of the engine gets more oil than the other side?

If you put the PCV in the valvecover, it needs a shroud or it will suck in oil. That's why the intake manifold can be a better location. However the PCV feeds in below the carb, so oil (if that is the source of the smoke) should come out both sides evenly.

There will be a bit of startup smoke "just because", but it sounds like you might have too much. Does it smell rich? Or like oil smoke? If it is rich, some tweaking of the idle mixture adjustment screws should do the trick...

-Bob C.

Something quick & easy to check just for the hey of it. Short story. Friend of mine did a rebuild on his 421 Catalina. While taking the engine out of the car he put a rag into the lower radiator hose outlet at the water pump to try & contain as much coolant as possible & not make a mess. Months later on start-up had the same problems. Would get hot very quickly. Didn't run it much, but ended up wiping the cam & rings because of this. Pulled it all apart again & started all over as he couldn't find anything wrong. This time he asked if I would come over for the initial start. Got hot very quickly again!!!!!! Checking things over & over & over & couldn't find anything. Finally in disgust we started taking off the timing case cover to check cam timing. During this we discovered the rag. He remembers putting it there & forgot all about it.
A just FYI. Never know. It's the simple things that can, & many times do, trip you up. Remember the old saying, the "Kiss" principal, "Keep It Simple Stupid"
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When I primed the oil pump using an old distributor with the valve covers off, oil came pouring out of the passenger side and came out far slower in the drivers side. If u look through the filler cap on the drivers side you can see the oil flowing but if you look at the passenger side through the pcv hole its coming out at a much higher rate.

less than 10psi at idle isnt too low?
i havnt seen it go to more than 30psi at 3000rpm.

And thats with 20w50 oil

less than 10psi at idle isnt too low?

are you using a stock or aftermarket gauge?

how much less? 10lbs per 1000 rpm is the typical rule of thumb for a Buick.

for a fix, you can shim the pressure relief valve on the oil pump with a washer the TA adjustable relief valve is simpler but washers under the spring will work just fine.




It gets really hot really fast for no apparent reason,

how hot is "really hot".

have you checked the function of your fan clutch, replaced the thermostat and radiator hoses?

what is the condition of the inside of your aluminum water pump housing and impeller?

new radiator or old?



oil came pouring out of the passenger side and came out far slower in the drivers side.

this, i'm not sure i like.

was the block cleaned?



Large quantities of smoke out the passenger side bank,

inspect the plugs for richness or oil. or could it be water?

water would explain your overheating problem ( head gasket ).

Maybe you will have to pull your timing cover and make sure the oil gallery plugs are in correctly. If you have to pull timing cover to check the plugs, there is also the possiblity of damage to the gasket where the pump pulls and pushes from the block to the gasket.

I saw a motor put together so tight that it heated the first couple of times it was started. It was fine after that.

I'd still recheck the timing. Late timed engines will run fine but will build heat like you describe. Was timing set with the vacuum advance disconnected? Were the timing marks on the balancer and front cover checked with TDC on number 1 before the heads were installed? I've never seen a slipped balancer on a Buick, but I've seen plenty of Chevy's do it. You could add some advance and see if it helps.
On the oil pump, what is your actual measured clearance between the end of the gears and the cover? Just putting new gears in and bolting on a booster plate does not mean that the clearance will be right. Every gasket maker uses a different thickness of gasket in their gasket sets. I have kept every extra gasket from every gasket set I've ever had. They range from .002 to .009 thou. in thickness. You have to measure your gear to cover clearance and choose a gasket that will give you the required clearance. Sometimes the gears will even protrude a thou or two. TA performance sells a gasket assortment specifically for this selective fitting. Every Buick that I've put together with the minimum clearance will run whatever pressure the relief valve in the pump is set at at cruising speed. Usually about 40 to 45 lbs. at 2200 rpm. That's with new, tight main clearances also.
The only thing that I can think of that will cause low oil delivery to the drivers side rockers is a front cam bearing that is not "clocked" properly to line up the oil passages that supply oil to the drivers side. TA, I believe, also sells a by pass hose kit that will bypass oil to the drivers side oil gallery in case of front cam bearing problems. Would be easier to install that kit than to tear down the engine to fix the cam bearing issue. Not really the right way to do it though. I would look at the oil flow over all the rockers, not just the one you can see through the oil fill hole, while the engine was running before I did anything drastic or condemned any parts or assembly.
As for as the smoke, make real sure that you don't have a leaking valve cover pouring oil on the exhaust. Good luck.

Cooling i do believe is coming down to a dodgy fan clutch. But it will hit 210degrees without any hesitation. Air temp down here is about 80 degrees.

It's a reputable aftermarket gauge (electric). It will hover around 7-10psi idle and not pass 30psi at all (throughout rev range). It is a tad scary. It makes no sense as the relief spring is pushed up hard and it is the heavy spring that came with the pump kit. not sure on how to check the pump clearance though.

There is definitely oil up the top as I didnt tighten the rocker covers down properly and after a quick drive there was oil leaking out of them.

Rechecked all timing today with vacuum off so pretty confident thats not my issue.

List of problems is getting smaller but this oil pressure is indeed scary. I would hope that the builders had installed the cam bearings properly. The block was cleaned. The only things in the engine that didnt get changed were cam bearings which had less than 1000miles

Do you know what your clearances are? It almost sounds like this was built by a chevy shop who just assumed that 0.004" clearances are okay because that's what chevies use.

One other thing for the temperature - my lower radiator hose has a spring in it. Some new hoses claim to not require the spring, but if you have an old one around it is some cheap insurance.

If your engine is hot, is your radiator hot? You should be able to spray the radiator with a hose and the water dripping off should be very hot too. If not, then the water isn't circulating properly.

Also, what was the end clearance on your oil pump? Your machinist would probably have noted this somewhere, even if the engine wasn't blueprinted. Did you get a high-volume, or high-pressure pump? (I hope not- the stock setup works just fine)

-Bob C.

While the block may have been cleaned, were the heads? Could the oil gallery in the drivers head be restricted?

It will hover around 7-10psi idle and not pass 30psi at all (throughout rev range). It is a tad scary.

stop running the engine. now. this is extremely serious and the engine needs to be torn down immediately.

did the shop that rebuilt this claim to have experience with Buick engines? as bobc notes, the clearances on the the bearings should have been specc'ed at .002" or less for the bearings.

if you have any question at all about the clocking of the cam bearings, those also need to be double checked.

Before I take it out....

How do you check end clearance on the oil pump? could that make a difference

Would using the correct grade oil 10w30 help as some people suggest?

Is there anything else that needs to be checked in terms of tolerances on new oil pumps.

Here's the oil pump measurements:

http://www.teambuick.com/reference/library/71_chassis/files/60-b.pdf

on page 60-81

Would using the correct grade oil 10w30 help as some people suggest?

no, absolutely not. you said you're running 20w-50 right now, putting a thinner viscosity oil in isn't going to do anything but drop oil pressure.

the kludge fix for low oil pressure is to go the other way, put in 15w-40 or 20w-50 if you can't pull enough pressure on 10w-30. and this works for any engine, not just Buick's.

what brand oil filter are you using? not Fram, hopefully?

Before I take it out....
Also before you take it out, ask your machinist what he used for the main & rod bearing clearances. A quick phone call should settle this. Then report back here and let us know.

Chances are pretty good your machinist just put the oil pump together with a gasket from a gasket kit (if he even disassembled the oil pump at all). In that case, you probably have maybe 0.005" of clearance which is more than ideal but probably not causing your problems.

-BC

I run a 1967 430 (Block code ND) in a 1971 GS that originally had a 350 and Muncie 4 speed in it and it heats up really fast, but never gets overheated. I live in Hotlanta Georgia and we can get over 100F temperatures here during the summer. There are a couple of things that contribute to this phenomenom:

1) The exhaust crossover from the heads to the intake manifold will put a lot of heat into the intake charge quickly. If you block this heat crossover, it will heat up more slowly. Secondly, there is a heat trace at the base of the carburetor if you are using the stock manifold that connects to this crossover. I threaded the riser tubes and put hex head set screws in. This also solved the exhaust leak coming from the base of the carburetor. If you block this crossover, you MUST use an electric choke on the carburetor
2) I recently had Stage 1 valves put in the stock 430 heads and the mechanic (Dave Macintosh - Cumming, Georgia who has raced big block Buicks for over 35 years) said that the shop that put the hardedned seats in 15 years ago did not do a good job of radiusing the back side of the seats causing a hot spot in the exhaust path from each cylinder - leading to a potential overheating problem. If you had a uninformed shop do this operation (install hardended valve seats) you may want to revist this if you are doing a tear down.
3) Make sure you run the 7 blade fan and not the 6 blade fan and a 4 core radiator. the 7 blade fan is hard (only seen one on Ebay in the last year)to find since it was installed on the high compression engines. The 430 stock compression is at 10 or 10.5 to 1.
4) I run a 160F thermostat
5) I run 10 degrees of initial static timing - factory standard. Your engine will run cooler if you connect the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum instead of ported vacuum - your idle speed will go up requiring adjustment. This will run your idle advance to around 20 to 25 degrees and will retard to wherever the mechanical advance (I run one light spring and one medium spring) takes it when you open the butterflys and manifold vacuum drops. I recommend using a GM HEI unit for dead on switching without the point bounce at higher RPM's (>4000) that these engines seemed to suffer from. Counter to making LOTS of power, but it will still shred the tires and the idle is smooth as glass hiding the power potential of the engine at a stop light.

Hope this helps, the only comment I have on the oil pressure is that the 10 psi with a hot engine at idle is not uncommon, but only getting to 30 psi is a concern, Your shop mave set you up a little too loose for the big crank journals.

Hi guys, sorry about taking so long to get back.

haha Fram? noway I know all about how bad those things are. I'm using Valvoline for the run in and K+N for when it's ready. Its got Valvoline 15w40 in it at the moment

Machine shop advised bearings are at .002" as a buick should be. (at least that proves they can read the info I gave them). Ive decided the gauge must be faulty or it would have blown up by now....

Ive since put about 200miles on it to start the break in process. What is the accepted run in distance for these sorts of engines?

It's running quite well at this point, obviously not giving it too much of a hard time.

Sorted overheating, came down to a dodgy fan clutch (now welded up :clonk:) and heavily retarded timing. Also external trans cooler, the 3000rpm stall converter was heating the trans up a bit.

Still noticing a hesitation around 3800rpm, what could cause this? Carb tuning? Is it reasonable to expect full rpm on stock points ignition?

Thank you so much for all ur expertise. I can't find anyone in New Zealand that know the Buick big block. The chevy guys dont get it....

have you fixed the oil pressure issue?

It sounds as if you have welded the fan clutch to no longer free wheel. I do not think that to be a good idea. Those large 5 or 7 blade fans are not made to spin at full speed all the time. There is a small chance that they will come apart from fatigue after awhile. Not to mention the much increased load on your water pump bearings. I had a '72 Riviera that had a fan clutch lock up on me one time. It sounded like I had an airplane under the hood. You will also be throwing away several horsepower and some efficiency trying to spin that fan at water pump speed all the time. A problem made worse with 3000 rpm converter.