View Full Version : Cross-flow/OHC head for str8



onetruerick
11-22-2007, 08:07 AM
I have been a fan of the straight-8 since my first car, a 1950 Buick with a 248/Dynaflow. I am a mechanical engineer, and I have been thinking about an advanced cylinder head for these engines for a long time. Basically, there are two ways to go about it - build a wax model and mold and cast the head, or machine it from a billet using a CNC machine. Either way, it would have to be done in two pieces, an upper half and lower half to allow you to properly design the coolant flow passages.

The way I would do it would be to start with a Honda 4 valve-per-cylinder SOHC head. I would cut this head apart horizontally to get to the insides and make a wax copy of it. I would then make an 8-cylinder version of the wax head with the proper bore spacings and head bolt pattern. I would also make a cam design using the original cam and the bearing arrangement of the new head, keeping the firing order the same as the original Buick cam. Then I would put the wax head into a sand mold and have it cast in aluminum - then start the machining.

I think a cool design would place 8 intake and 8 exhaust ports on each side of the head. The engine would use two intake manifolds, one primary and one secondary, and two headers (or 4) that would make it look like a very narrow V16. I would have to leave the cam in the block to drive the oil pump and distributor. I think I would use two four-barrels, one on each side, or maybe port EFI. Each side could have a turbo or a small (3-71 or 4-71) blower also.

The problem? Cost! This would cost, what $15K-$20K, plus the straight-8, which of course should be a 320 with custom rods, pistons, and bottom-end girdle.

Anyway, something cool to think about. If Jay Leno wants to fund it, I would be glad to tackle it, and make up some extra heads to sell to you guys!

Rick (NASA guy)

36 Century
11-22-2007, 08:47 AM
I have built a custom cylinder head for an inline 6 cylinder datsun engine, by cutting and bolting together three pairs of heads, its pretty simple. Your 15-20k is about half of what casting and mold cost would be, trust me Ive looked into it. We are actually milling a billet head for our straight eight, 8 intake ports and 8 exhuast ports, but not crossflow, and not OHC. You might wanna look at a studson motor, as they are a ohc straight eight.

onetruerick
11-22-2007, 10:55 AM
My cost estimate was pretty low, come to think of it, but I was also assuming a lot of free labor and didn't include the manifolds, carbs or blowers.

Pontiac made an OHC six back in the 60s which would probably make a good pattern to copy for a new head. You could also copy a Hemi design and keep the pushrods.

I would be interested in seeing your existing custom head as well as the one you are making now.

Thanks for writing,
Rick

onetruerick
11-22-2007, 11:02 AM
I can't find any reference to a studson motor. And Hudson's were flatheads. Where can I find info on this?

36 Century
11-22-2007, 11:28 AM
I have a studs motor, Ill take pics on monday, its down at my shop. Here is some pics and info, LOTS of reading.


http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=120659


Theres about twelve pages of pictures, and info there on my existing custom head.

Heres a dyno graph of RWHP as well

http://www.bandmzcars.com/sitebuilder/images/new_graph-752x565.png

harrybar
11-22-2007, 12:46 PM
What vehicle are you planning to put this engine in? I have a 1940 Buick with an original 248 straight eight. It runs as good as the brakes and suspension will handle. If it had muchmore power I think I would have to add disc brakes and alter the suspension and steering. .

alleycat
11-22-2007, 12:49 PM
Actually, this idea is not new, and has been kicked around here any number of times. I also, am a ME with some tool&die background, and have been fooling around with str8's since I was a kid, and the head problem keeps cropping up and I just don't see a easy way around it. I've managed to engineer my way around the head and actually get good power out of the engine, as have a bunch of other guys around the country. But, the basic limitation is the head, it will flow only so much and thats it. Period.

Buick had different plans for the str8 and the 263 is the only hint of it, the 248 and 320 were basicly obsolete by the time they were made and Buick knew it. The 263 was the answer, it is a WAY better engine and it indicates the direction that Buick was going to go, and a very much better head was, at the least, in the works for the 263. Something went wrong and all we got was the engine. The lack of a good head has bugged me for years!

I think I'm getting close to a answer. Here's my thinking. Someplace along the line this country decided it did not like inline engines and r&d on them stopped. The little minor detail that it took about 40 more years of V8 r&d to get back to where inlines were, is of little importance. So the likelyhood of anything made for anything in this country fitting the str8, is about zip. However, in Europe inline r&d did not stop and there are some of the coolest cross flow heads that can be imagined sitting on inline engines from "over there". These are 6 cylinder engines or 4 cylinder engines so this will be a "2 heads to make 1 head" effort from the get go.

I just got my hands on a mercedes benz 6 head from the late 80's or early 90's. It is so close to doing it, that its unreal. Like, within .060 per cylinder. I also got to see a beemer 6 head, I was not able to actually measure it as it was going back on the car, it looked reeeealy close. These companys made several different engines, one may have the exact bore spacing. There are others that should be looked at. These heads do everything that could be asked for.

It would not be a weekend install. The str8 is a narrow engine. These heads have a lot of gear in 'em, they are wide. Therefore, putting a new deck on the engine will be almost manditory. Fabbing up a cam drive will be intresting, water pump issues...And then the intake and exhaust. Would it be cool? Would it make power? Oh yeah...Alleycat

39CENT
11-22-2007, 11:46 PM
I wrote in an earlier post about one of the OT racers welding 2 Toyota 22R cross flow OHC heads I,ve seen it in a old Hot Rod Mechanix mag , and talked to him about it. The magazine shows it sitting on a 320 block. I had thought about that before. In fact I had a used 18R gasket laying around my garage [dont ask]and it looked to be close to the cylinder bore and spacing so I threw it on an old 320 block , an lo and behold it is pretty close! his is already welded but he stopped becuz that head wouldnt be allowed at Bonneville. He was trying to get a quarter-speed cam made up but couldnt . I think it would be possible to run the toyota cam with a 1-1 belt drive off the Buick cam!!! ??? pretty far out eh? But the possibilities are there, and the cost would be within reason. I,m sure that would really wake up that baby!

36 Century
11-23-2007, 10:09 AM
Exactly, like you say you CANT run an OHC head in the vintage classes. You can run a alluminum 4 valve crossflow push rod head though, thats what were building out of billet.

onetruerick
11-23-2007, 04:49 PM
Stutz made a SOHC inline 8 - could this be what you are talking about? They were very much ahead of their time, as was Duesenberg with their DOHC 32-valve 8.

41slug
12-24-2007, 09:10 AM
I wrote in an earlier post about one of the OT racers welding 2 Toyota 22R cross flow OHC heads I,ve seen it in a old Hot Rod Mechanix mag , and talked to him about it. The magazine shows it sitting on a 320 block. I had thought about that before. In fact I had a used 18R gasket laying around my garage [dont ask]and it looked to be close to the cylinder bore and spacing so I threw it on an old 320 block , an lo and behold it is pretty close! his is already welded but he stopped becuz that head wouldnt be allowed at Bonneville. He was trying to get a quarter-speed cam made up but couldnt . I think it would be possible to run the toyota cam with a 1-1 belt drive off the Buick cam!!! ??? pretty far out eh? But the possibilities are there, and the cost would be within reason. I,m sure that would really wake up that baby!


Here's a shot of Mell Tull's head that you're talking about. It's from the article in the old hot rod mechanix you mentioned.
I've talked to Mel too a few times and the guy is a wealth of info and the notes I took while he was telling me some of his set ups are almost unreadable I was writing so fast, pontiac V8 ignition, chrysler rockers, 13 to 1 compression, '38 buick trans, later (up to '56) rear with the 3.23 gears in it...on and on. The guy is amazing. Still holds the record in street roadster class too with his 356" buick at 178mph. He said the engine's turning 6500 to get there.

39CENT
01-02-2008, 12:01 PM
Here's a shot of Mell Tull's head that you're talking about. It's from the article in the old hot rod mechanix you mentioned.
I've talked to Mel too a few times and the guy is a wealth of info and the notes I took while he was telling me some of his set ups are almost unreadable I was writing so fast, pontiac V8 ignition, chrysler rockers, 13 to 1 compression, '38 buick trans, later (up to '56) rear with the 3.23 gears in it...on and on. The guy is amazing. Still holds the record in street roadster class too with his 356" buick at 178mph. He said the engine's turning 6500 to get there. Attached Thumbnails http://www.teambuick.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=374&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1198516137 (http://www.teambuick.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=374&d=1198516137)

41 slug, YES this it!. cudnt find it in my magazine mess. Yea Mel is a guru on straight eights! Its do-able would like to see it finished,

39 cent

bigirish2
01-02-2008, 10:27 PM
Kurt Hinkle at Engine Tech Machine in Santa Maria, Ca has built a new head using two 4 cylinder Toyota heads, if memory serves.
You can call him at 805 928 7973
Mike S

alleycat
01-03-2008, 11:25 AM
So I finaly get to see some photos of the much talked about, "Mell Tull Head". Astounding! Totaly BRILLIANT!! This looks to very workable. I don't understand the need for a 1/4 cam and why the lack of, stoped this project. Granted, it could'ent be raced, but for the street, second to none!! I'd like to see more photos, on and off the block, the deck, everything! alleycat

39CENT
01-04-2008, 10:02 AM
Well you can just imagine how well that engine would run, and with fuel injection it would be a dream. Dont know what the compression would be but if it was low, add a blower, think TORQUE' WOW! [just keep it below 5k]

41slug
01-06-2008, 10:18 AM
41 slug, YES this it!. cudnt find it in my magazine mess. Yea Mel is a guru on straight eights! Its do-able would like to see it finished, 39 cent

He's a very nice guy. I called him a few times picking his brain about building a '51 two door to race at bonneville. I thonght it would be a lot of fun, so he had an amazing amout of information for me, little things too. Like, and I can't find it in front of me right now, but the body style I had picked (only because I knew where one was for cheap) was exactly the one he would have picked for this type of project. Be his reasoning was much more sound than mine. It was the only car Buick made at that time that you could NOT order without fender skirts. So even though skirts are not allowed to be added to a race car at B-ville (in that paticular class the car would run in), they would have to let you run them on this car because it came from the factory like that. He know's how to cheat the wind and make the big 8 run. We roughed out a very do-able plan to get the record, or at least make a good atempt at it, but with 2 kids in college and a 3rd bringing up the rear in a few years I knew it was pretty much a pipe dream on my part after I started to tally everything up. lol

Still, would be a lot of fun to do.

duke
12-17-2008, 03:53 PM
Hi guys,

I was going through some of my boxes....since I moved to a different place. Lo and behold, I found my camshaft grind spec sheets. One from Isky and one from Crane cams. These are pretty good grinds. Both grinds have been used by us for years. Results with these cams are 140+mph in the quarter and 180+ at Bonneville. If anyone wants a copy, e-mail me and I will send you one. grhamannatyahoo. The at is @ of course.
As for the hold it under 5,000 rpm, no, we have ran ours 6,500rpm and sometimes more to 7,000 to 7,200 rpms several times. Engine still held together over decades of drag racing.

An 8 intake 8 exhaust crossflow head would be terrific to have. The str-8 would out run everything in sight.

Happy racing to everyone.

39CENT
12-17-2008, 07:09 PM
Hi guys,

I was going through some of my boxes....since I moved to a different place. Lo and behold, I found my camshaft grind spec sheets. One from Isky and one from Crane cams. These are pretty good grinds. Both grinds have been used by us for years. Results with these cams are 140+mph in the quarter and 180+ at Bonneville. If anyone wants a copy, e-mail me and I will send you one. grhamannatyahoo. The at is @ of course.
As for the hold it under 5,000 rpm, no, we have ran ours 6,500rpm and sometimes more to 7,000 to 7,200 rpms several times. Engine still held together over decades of drag racing.

An 8 intake 8 exhaust crossflow head would be terrific to have. The str-8 would out run everything in sight.

Happy racing to everyone.


Well there ya have it folks, from a guy that really raced his straight 8 !

stubbe
12-18-2008, 12:43 PM
I have also a dream of building a aeroplane,had it for forty years,
and a boat and going round the World.The time is not enough,
so in my dreams it is still a work for me to do.Maybe become a dream.
The cauch is really good,my mind dreams on.Tommorow i build a copter.
Let me know if yor engine fires.

Stubbe in Sweden:shifter:

Buick Guy
12-20-2008, 09:53 AM
Just set the record at Bonneville World Of Speed in September for the
XO/BGC class using a 320 inch turbocharged /air/water intercooled, carbed straight 8. The engine is in a 1984 Jag XJ6 4 door sedan. Ran 153 MPH and with backup set the record at 151.508. This year we are using a sequential fuel injection on the old girl and hope to go 175 in the 4500+ pound car. We , too would like to play with a head design change if we have enough years left to do it. The goal is to get a straight 8 door slammer over 200 MPH. Doug

Jyrki
12-20-2008, 10:53 AM
Welcome to the forum, Doug!
I'd love to see the other side of the engine, and hear about the mods on the engine, if you will :thumbsup:

Buick Guy
12-20-2008, 03:54 PM
Haven't done this before, so let me start by saying it's nice to be with Buick guys.
Let me start with a little history to bore everybody.
My partner Frank Morris and I go back 50 years this years playing with cars. We took a 32 Ford powered by a 303 Olds to Tiauana for upholstery in 1962. We were 15 and 16 years old. In 1976 we raced a 1972 Stage I GS in NHRA F/SA and won the Fall Nationals in Seattle and set the national record in Mission BC a month later. Fast forward to retirement. We figured that we would need to do something we both liked to keep us busy, so we thought that a Salt Flats car would give us Winter and Summer activity for the forseable future, without occupying all of our free time. [We lied] Three years ago we came up with a project that involved parts that were in our back yard. The body is a 1984 Jag XJS sedan and being Buick people, the xtra Roadmaster straight 8 engine left over from another project seemed interesting. Moving ahead, the engine is a 320 inch 1951 engine with a Crane turbo grind cam, Groden 9 inch rods, CP pistons, and a 60 series Turbonetics turbo run through an air/water intercooler. Last year, we used a Demon blo-thru carb with mixed results. We set the class record at 151.508. and wasted a lot of small parts, but nothing big failed. For next year, we have put together a sequential fuel injection from Electromotive. Just fired the car yesterday, and now have 7 months to get it programmed right. Shooting for 175 MPH to start. Then comes the long course. WOW!! this is probably more than you wanted to hear. I'll try to put some pics in so you can see what it's all about. BUICKS!!! of course. Doug [not sure how many pics be attached]

Buick Guy
12-20-2008, 03:56 PM
Here's the other side as you wanted. Sorry!

Buick Guy
12-20-2008, 06:07 PM
Let's try again. Apparently I exceeded my quota. Here's the other side. Doug [That's my partner Frank Morris]

bob k. mando
12-20-2008, 07:57 PM
this is probably more than you wanted to hear.

to the contrary, this is quite fascinating.

any idea what kind of hp you're pulling?

Buick Guy
12-21-2008, 06:59 AM
Before we went to Speed Week in August, we had a Demon carb on it that had some issues that wouldn't allow us to get it richened up like we needed and we damn near burned it down. We burned the ground straps off of two plugs each pass. We later found that the carb had come from the factory with .110 needles and seats. The blow thru carb that we were using was supposed to come with .130 needles and seats. To make a long story short, in a vain attempt to get it richened up, we actually discovered that we were using jets that were larger than the passages in the metering blocks. [we finally mounted a video camera under the hood to discover that the bowls were going empty]. The fuel guage threw us because it remained where it was supposed to all the time. Because we had waited two years to get the car ready we went anyway hoping to sort it out on the Salt. It wasn't to be, but we still managed to set the record at World of speed in September at 151.508, with a max effort of 153. Back to your original question, before we left for the Salt in August, we took the car to Billings and put it on a chassis dyno and it put 450 HP and 453FT LB of torque to the rear wheels. [about like a Duramax]
This year, running correctly and with the new EFI system we are hoping for 600HP and would like to break 175 MPH. Don't know if it's possable, but you have to have goals, and above all, we're having fun now!!!! Doug

Aaron65
12-21-2008, 07:33 AM
WOW! I'd like to see a pic of that big old motor in the Jag! How does it fit????

Buick Guy
12-21-2008, 12:49 PM
Here's what it looks like in the Jag. Most of three cyl. fit back behind the firewall. The valve cover fits so tight to the underside of the windshield [windscreen to the Brits] , that we had to make a clamp at the rear to hold it down and make the valve cover in three sections so that the front and back can be removed so that the center section can slide out to adjust the valves. There are some more pictures at www.landracing.com (http://www.landracing.com) Click on forums and go to the EFI questions blog.

bob k. mando
12-21-2008, 03:47 PM
put it on a chassis dyno and it put 450 HP and 453FT LB of torque to the rear wheels.

damn. even if you never get any more than that, that's quite impressive for a 50 year old 320ci. that you're going for ~2hp/ci? my hat is off to you, sir.

Buick Guy
12-21-2008, 04:17 PM
Here's my partner Frank Morris' other cars. This is where the inspiration for the Jag motor came from. The car on the trailer is a 52 Roadmaster powered by a 320 inch straight 8 that is twin turboed,EFI, and intercooled. 700-4R trans, with Jag front and rear suspension and air ride. The tow rig is his wife Robin's 57 Caballero wagon, 425 cu in w/th400 and 9in Ford rear. The combo really attracts a crowd. Doug

Jyrki
12-22-2008, 10:59 AM
Doug, you're running nearly stock bore, rods being 3/4" longer than stock, right?
Given that the aluminum rods have much more meat compared to steel rods, I would imagine you had to clearance the bottom of the cylinders quite a bit? Did you hit water?
Have you calculated how much reciprocating weight did you save with the aluminum rod/piston combo, compared with original?
How much compression do you have?
What kind of mods have you performed on the heads?
How much ignition advance can it handle under boost?

Reading all the input from actual racers, what really surprises me is the amount of power and RPM the stock crank can take :jeez:

Buick Guy
12-22-2008, 12:50 PM
Jyrki, You are correct. The bore is .030 over. The notch in the bottom of the cyl. on both sides is about one inch wide and one inch up into the cyl. Not much chance of hitting water, as the lower cyl. protrudes down over 1 1/4 inches. Water is way above that. The crucial part that we were sweating when we ordered the rods [$2800 US.] was the rod to cam clearance. The lower shank of the rod was over double that of the stock steel rod. We chose a small block chev. profile to get the size down. In the end it cleared by 1/4 inch. The next problem was that the old Buick crank pins are over 1 inch wide, and nobody had any aluminum stock that thick, so we had to cut the crank throws down to smallblock size and then have the crank cheeks welded up to set the rod side clearances to avoid a massive oil leak. By using the longer rods and going to a thin ring set and only 3 rings/piston we were able to cut 19 oz. off of each throw. [a lot of weight flying around]. In the end, the combination yeilded a comp. ratio of 8.5 to 1. We chose not to o-ring the block, and do what we can to prevent detonation which is usually the cause of head gasket failure and not the gasket. We did, however, stud the head and the mains to get as much clamping force as possible. We usually use about 15 lbs of boost and are very conservative on the advance at 28 degrees or less. If in doubt, we cut that back to about 24 and work up. As far as the crank, it is forged steel from the factory, and even after the welding/straightening operation it shows no signs of moving around.[I guess we'll know when it starts running in two halves]. There are some other pictures at the LSR site at: www.landracing.com (http://www.landracing.com) just click on web forums and scroll down to the EFI questions and the straight 8 topic. I think the pistons are shown there. Doug

Jyrki
12-26-2008, 03:51 AM
Doug, thanks for the thorough answer! I browsed thru the land speed STR-8 EFI discussion. Great pics of the rods and pistons there! What really worries me is that now I'm convinced that a batch-fire EFI will not work for me. I was building a Megasquirt EFI, where the injectors are squirting into the plenum just below the butterflies, but that would require a common plenum for all cylinders, to even out mixture variations between siamesed cylinders. I have one plenum for cyls 1-4 and another for cyls 5-8, and that may not be enough. A lot of wasted effort.
:angry:

It'll be interesting to hear how the sequential EFI shall work as opposed to a carb.

Buick Guy
12-26-2008, 05:44 AM
Jyrki,
Don't feel bad about wasted effort if it doesn't work out. We built two completely different manifolds for the SaltCat before we discovered it wasn't a distribution problem, and it turned out to be the carb. Then when we decided on EFI. we had to build yet another. The first two are hanging on the shop wall as sacrifices to the Gods of Speed. I believe that you should have one plenum, and it's volume should be equal to the displacement of your engine.[320+ cu. In.] If you don't have it , you should get the book, "Maximum Boost". It is extremely detailed, and has never led us off of the path. Every time we go wrong, we go back to the book and discover that we didn't follow and it is our error. From your description, it appears that you are building basically a throttle body system for two separate 4 cyl. engines if I get it right. It may work, but you would have to put some sort of equalizer tube between the two plenums to keep things running together. Similar to a dual carb. engine. I'll see if I can find a picture of our manifold in the beginning.[not that it's the prettiest thing in the world, as we have to work with steel instead of aluminum].
Doug

Buick Guy
12-26-2008, 05:51 AM
Here's the manifold in the beginning. I believe it's about 31 inches long and approximately 4 inches in diameter. Should be in the range of the engine volume. Doug

Jyrki
12-27-2008, 04:58 AM
I believe that you should have one plenum, and it's volume should be equal to the displacement of your engine.[320+ cu. In.]
Doug

Doug, I assume the plenum size equal to displacement applies to forced induction only? I have a naturally aspirated system (so far), and I think so much plenum volume would kill all street manners. Do you happen to have any pictures on your earlier carbureted manifold?

You can see pictures of my intake here: http://gamma.nic.fi/~marlin/april2004.html and here http://gamma.nic.fi/~marlin/may2005.html
My thought was to use the original Strombergs as throttle bodies, but we'll see. The balance tube might help as you suggested.

36 Century
12-27-2008, 01:53 PM
For a fuel injected engine, 1.5 times displacement of the engine, is what the plentum should be. I would recoment calculating the sound wave effect also for runner length, via RPM, etc.

Buick Guy
12-28-2008, 07:13 AM
Jyrki, Pardon my last post. I completely forgot that your EFI engine is normally aspirated. The volumn there would be completely different. 36 Century's figures may be more correct in his last post. I do have pictures of the other two manifolds for the carbureted setup, but they, too, are used with the turbocharger. We have yet to try it with the carburetor alone. Sorry to lead you astray. If, however, anyone is trying the turbo setup, I highly recommend the Corky Bell book,"Maximum Boost". By the way, you have done a beautiful job on the carb setup. I have a 1941 Buick shop manual that pictures and describes the operation of the compound carb setup that they used. I don't think that it is as inefficient as everyone thinks. At speed,[as it is a progressive setup] it becomes equal length runners for each cyl. The exhaust manifolds , too, are pretty good looking for 1941. We have found that for an engine designed about 1936 and produced from 1939 to 1953, it isn't all that bad of a design. We'll know if it is up to the task in August. Doug

Janderson
12-30-2008, 06:58 PM
On the subject of crossflow heads for a straight 8........

I too have been racking my brain over this for some years now. I may have found a pushrod 4 cyl. head that may just work. I am a cylinder head porter and have collected many "test" heads over the years. I came across a GM 4 cyl. head that is really quite a neat design. Aluminum, VERY tall head so it's of a raised port design, canted valve, good combustion chamber shape, and lots of them out there. I was playing around with it one day when I noticed it was close to the bore spacing of a 263. I didn't have a gasket handy but I did have a head and at first comparison it looks promising. Would take some work but when you are dealing with a project like this it's just going to. I haven't flow tested it yet but from observation it would have good power potential at any engine speed.

I LOVE that so many people are noticing these neat old 8's and getting creative with them!!

Buick Guy
01-08-2009, 03:37 PM
Janderson,
While you are looking for heads. The 320 engine bore spacing is about 41/8". We have to use a pushrod motor, as we aren't allowed to re-locate the cam. Love to find heads to make a crossflow engine. At Bonneville, we have lots of time between races. Doug

39CENT
01-09-2009, 10:01 AM
Here's the manifold in the beginning. I believe it's about 31 inches long and approximately 4 inches in diameter. Should be in the range of the engine volume. Doug


On the subject of crossflow heads for a straight 8........

I too have been racking my brain over this for some years now. I may have found a pushrod 4 cyl. head that may just work. I am a cylinder head porter and have collected many "test" heads over the years. I came across a GM 4 cyl. head that is really quite a neat design. Aluminum, VERY tall head so it's of a raised port design, canted valve, good combustion chamber shape, and lots of them out there. I was playing around with it one day when I noticed it was close to the bore spacing of a 263. I didn't have a gasket handy but I did have a head and at first comparison it looks promising. Would take some work but when you are dealing with a project like this it's just going to. I haven't flow tested it yet but from observation it would have good power potential at any engine speed.

I LOVE that so many people are noticing these neat old 8's and getting creative with them!!

And this is 'racking my brain', which head is it? and for anybody, 'why does it have to be a crossflow head?' ????

Buick Guy
01-09-2009, 06:19 PM
36 cent,
Don't think it has to be a crossflow, but it does get crowded on one side with 8 exh pipes and 4 int. If you were to build a head with 8 int. pipes that would make for some interesting logistics. The 320 has about 4 1/8 bore spacing. Have you come across and "modern" heads that are in that area with pushrods?

39CENT
01-09-2009, 10:21 PM
No I havnt really tried to find a better head, but i did stumble across the toyota 18r and 22r heads that looked like they would work. Its in this thread, but are OHC not pushrod. Maybe the older generation of that Toyota engine was a pushrod head but Ive never seen one. the J Anderson post dangled a hint of a GM 4 cyl head but didnt say what its off of?.

BigRivy
01-10-2009, 01:07 AM
I've been in the automotive machine business for 22 years and have seen just about every type of domestic head out there from the 30's to the 90's. I also have a '49 320 engine in my shop that I mess with from time to time. And I can tell you that "in my opinion" there is no existing, domestic, pushrod type head that is adaptable to the 320. I do not believe that when you take in to consideration the veritable curtain of head bolts and pushrods that run down the length of the passenger side of the block That no "crossflow" type of head will ever be able to snake it's way through this tangle of obstructions. It could be done if you were designing a new head, but I don't think I would. If I were to design a head I probably would not make it a crossflow style of head. Ya gotta keep things as simple as possible if you want to make it doable and affordable. You can fantasize about any type of head you would like to have but in this case you have to start with what the Buick engineers gave us and work from there. I'll even go one more to really stir things up by stating that if I was gonna cast a low volume head for an application like this I probably would cast it in Iron instead of aluminum. I believe it would be considerably cheaper to do so from almost any aspect. You just have to get it right the first time because iron is harder to modify. You would also want to do it as economically as possible to put it within reach of as many potential customers, street and race, as possible. Boy, sorry I got off on this tangent. I originally signed on to post my guess as to what head janderson was alluding to. My guess, from his description, tall, canted valve, GM aluminum, pushrods, common, would be the 2.0 - 2.2 4-cyl head that was on all the Chevy Berretta's and other small GM's through the late 80's and 90"s. They're cheap and available everywhere and if they would work we'd be partying in the street like lottery winners. But I think he stated on another thread that that they are close, but no cigar! So the point is moot.

Buick Guy
01-10-2009, 05:37 AM
As you said, it's a fantasy, but we all live for these dreams. If we don't share those dreams, we might pass up that one chance. In Montana this week, they have announced that a lottery ticket for $450,000 is expiring nexy week because somebody forgot to follow up on their dream. Last week, a lady's dieing husband got her to go buy a lottery ticket. He died two hours before the drawing. It was the winning ticket for $13 million.
[was his estate taxed for his winnings? Does she file it as Single, or married/] Sort of off the subject but interesting. If I won, however, you would see a new head available for the old straight 8. Of course, that would mean that I'd first have to buy a ticket. Doug:D

39CENT
01-11-2009, 12:31 AM
well here,s the only Buick crossflow head I,ve ever seen , for those that havnt, seen it. Its 2 Toyota 22r heads welded together an fit on the big 320 inch strt 8.

http://www.teambuick.com/forums (http://www.teambuick.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=374&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1198516137)

Janderson
01-12-2009, 06:10 PM
Ok, I'm back.

Yes, the head I was talking about in a previous thread does NOT work! The bore spacing is too large. I do not however have a 320 gasket to try, (buick guy stated the bore spacing is larger on the 320) but I would love to get my hands on one. I too see a wide variety of heads being that I am a head porter/machinist so anything I see that looks even remotely close I try a head gasket on. I agree that it doesn't HAVE to be a crossflow head. Like I said, I try the gasket on ANYTHING. But I am NOT going to give up the hunt because of practicality. Hot rodding wouldn't be where it is or WHAT it is if it wasn't for people thinking outside the box and being creative and inovative. Plus, it takes me 2 seconds to slap a gasket on a head and determine if it will work or not. Sorry for the rant :)

P.S. Buick Guy.......The cam has to stay in the stock location, is there any other rules that might be helpful to know. I am more than willing to work with you on this. :)

Buick Guy
01-13-2009, 06:42 AM
Janderson,
When you run a stock head in the "inline" class at Bonneville, as long as you run under 325 cu. in. you run what is called XO class. If you run over 325, but under 375 cu. in. you run XXO class. The same holds true if you remain under 325 cu. in. and run a non-stock, or after-market head. The caveat here is that the cam in all cases must remain in the stock location. The engine must have been produced prior to 1955. Complicated, but essentially the only restriction is that the cam remain in the block. As a rough measurement, the 320 has about 4 1/8 bore centers. I'll see if I can find a gasket to trace over and send to you to use as a template. This may be a futile search, but it's an interesting exercise, and at this point a cheap one, which is pretty rare these days. Doug

Janderson
01-13-2009, 05:58 PM
I would appreciate that Buick Guy! You are right, this experiment may not produce fruit but it's fun, and I can only imagine the feeling that may come over me when I happen to lay a gasket on a head and it matches so close it is SCARY! Until that comes, I will continue to experiment with the stock head on the flow bench.
P.S. You can email me at Jandersonheads@gmail.com and I will give you a mailing address.

bob k. mando
01-14-2009, 07:50 PM
i only just now found out about the Duesenberg engines. DOHC and 4v per cylinder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duesenberg#History

on the one hand, this thread looks like Duesy envy.

on the other, has anybody gotten ahold of a Duesy Str-8 head? it would be almost beyond belief to think that it might have the same bore spacing but wouldn't we feel stupid if nobody tried and it would have worked?

39CENT
01-14-2009, 10:28 PM
i only just now found out about the Duesenberg engines. DOHC and 4v per cylinder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duesenberg#History

on the one hand, this thread looks like Duesy envy.

on the other, has anybody gotten ahold of a Duesy Str-8 head? it would be almost beyond belief to think that it might have the same bore spacing but wouldn't we feel stupid if nobody tried and it would have worked?

ha ha good luck! yah thats what we want, but I think a doozy head is made of unobtanium, or if you find one its cost would be like a down payment on yer house. I actually had a little drag race with a Duesy. There was a guy that had one in my hometown back in 1962. He actually drove it to work, now and then. One day I was toodling along and saw his big pheaton comin up behind my 55 ford mainliner. It wasnt restored it was like a big ol 'barnfind' that he jus got runninn. Anyway we hit a stop lite and he kinda creeped up alongside. lite changed and i kinda stepped on my little 2dr 272 Yblock, fordomatic powered cruzer, well the ol guy started kinda slo but then i saw this big thing coming by like the super chief and just motored on by me. Its a good story and I can,t prove it, it was just him an me, but I think about it once in a while and smile, that was neat! And its true!

duesy
01-15-2009, 06:47 AM
Better breathing, increased performance as a result, and trick manifolding round out a killer cross-flow package. Chevy inline sixes had a bunch of aftermarket goodies along similar lines (Wayne heads). I have a Duesenberg Model A engine (SOHC 260 ci) and would not recommend fitting to Buick... dimensions notwithstanding, a big hunk of iron with just two siamesed intake ports, plus the fussy OHC drive arrangement. Duesy owner in WI has made a batch of new cast Model J heads (DOHC 420 ci) and it nearly broke his spirit and bank account... very complex and a lotta troubleshooting. Billet, or better yet, modifying a close match, would seem the way to go? The following Indy-based shop has done some amazing creative upgrades to various engines including extra main bearings to Hudson inlines, a number of supercharger config's, and so on: http://uncommonengineering.com/

duesy
01-15-2009, 12:44 PM
In reviewing the comments associated with this post I've noticed a couple of recurring themes I'd like to revisit: merits of cross flow, and cam location.

For all the effort expended to build a new head, cross-flow design would seem essential! That Toyota setup comprising two SOHC 4-cyl. heads might be just the ticket assuming dimensionally friendly to Buick block. Which side spark plugs and whataabout coolant passages? Then engineer an upstairs cam drive and eliminate the old cam and pushrods thereby freeing up runner space.

End result: straight 8 SOHC with better breathing, awesome torque, eye candy, and a dare-to-be-different attitude.

I'll check my Duesy stuff tonight and confirm cylinder spacing, but I can say right now it's not the way to go (see prior post and attached photos). New cast Model J heads $45K and probably 15% too big.

Perhaps someone close to Buick straights with motivation, skills, and time might be willing to nail down a design and generate cost estimates based on an agreed setup? Thanks for listening.

bob k. mando
01-15-2009, 05:35 PM
ha!

you know, after i made that "Duesy envy" post i went back and checked through this thread ... and whaddayaknow, Duesenberg's with DOHC and 32v were mentioned on the very first page. :clonk:

i figured i'd just leave the post up and take my turn in the barrel for once.

instead i flushed out a Duesy owner into registering on the board! :bana::D

you guys can beat me up all you want for not paying attention to the thread, it's worth it now. :bgrin:


and to think, all this started because i was checking out Pontiac wheelbase dimensions on Wikipedia.




I'll check my Duesy stuff tonight and confirm cylinder spacing

thank you, sir!

do you have any website recommendations for Duesenberg engines? what i was finding last night was very unsatisfying.

duesy
01-15-2009, 06:53 PM
Good of you to respond, and thanks to everyone for keeping this forum alive and the posts interesting!

Model A Duesy (1920-1926) bears a strong resemblance to their Indy cars of the period. Sixteen valves, SOHC, and a lotta cast aluminum. Achilles' Heel: only three mains. Fine at 100 HP, but would not withstand development as demonstrated by scattering guts over the tarmac during the "junk" formula era early thirties. Attached a few cross-sectional diagrams and intake engine shot of my Model A sporting very non-stock twin side draft SUs.

Then the Model X (1926-27), an interim between Model A and J. SOHC 8 as per Model A, but absent cross-flow breathing and every damn casting unique to the 15 made. No wonder the firm went bust.

Model J another animal entirely (1928-1937) and that which the company became most widely known. Massive and impressive with twin chain-driven overhead cams, 32 valves, five mains, and a claimed 265 HP, 320 blown. Where the Model A was reasonably powerful and nimble for the times, the J was an exercise in extravagance. Today, model J repop centrifugal blowers available around $75K, complete engines $150K on up, but most have cracked heads so add another $45K for new units. Not for the faint of heart.

So, a 320 ci Buick donor engine looks pretty attractive! But it needs a does of exotica, hence the trick head or maybe just a wild supercharger. Correct me if I'm wrong, weren't the stock Roadmasters putting out 150 HP? I gotta believe 200 HP + could be realized without going crazy and retaining street realiability. Let's get 'er done!

Attachments: Model A engine spec's, intake side Model A, Model J engine (the green one).

Oh, bore spacing Model A as follows: I'll leave it forum viewers to cross check with Buick pattern, but I think you'll find them apples and oranges. Ditto Model J.

Center of bore spacing between cylinders: 1/2, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8 - 3.23 in.
Center of bore spacing between cylinders: 2/3, 6/7 - 3.485 in.
Center of bore spacing between cylinders: 4/5 - 6.405 in.

Buick Guy
01-16-2009, 06:26 AM
Here's another thought. I took a suggestion from a previous post and contacted Uncommon Engineering [www.uncommonengineering.com]. I got a reply back yesterday. If you haven't visited their site, I urge you to do so. They have some pretty impressive stuff for some vintage engines,mostly flatheads. They have some cool Hudson stuff ,too. I asked about a crossflow head[2 valve ] no overhead cam. They said they could machine a head for [ballpark] for about $8000 for a one-off unit. Didn't go back for a volume price, but suspect it would be considerably lower. Thy also said that they could overbore the cam journals so that larger cam lobes could be fit to the block, and could do billet main caps also. Go to their site and look at their work. Pretty nice. :hurray: Doug

duesy
01-16-2009, 07:16 AM
I have corresponded with Steve Farkalay at Uncommon Engineering regarding various projects including Miller-style blowers and adding main bearing girdles in conjunction with modified cranks. I have found his approach and insight invaluable and believe he'd be a great resource for the discussed Buick project.

duesy
01-16-2009, 09:02 AM
check this out...

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/563127/Re_Extreme_Straight_8_Engines

Buick Guy
01-16-2009, 09:27 AM
Here's that SaltCat again [in my back yard]. Hope to road test it in a couple of days. Doug

Jim Carmichael
01-16-2009, 09:44 AM
All of this is so very interesting to me even if I never do any of the work involved with making a straight eight go faster.

I wonder where this engine would be now if Buick had continued to develop it.

39CENT
01-16-2009, 12:34 PM
All of this is so very interesting to me even if I never do any of the work involved with making a straight eight go faster.

I wonder where this engine would be now if Buick had continued to develop it.

I think that if they put just a better intake system on the 263 as has been said here in team buick that it would have been a really powerful engine platfom. However the future designers didnt have room for that big [in size] of engine.Also If it had also gone undersquare [bigger bore shorter stroke] and room for upsizing the cubes. It would have been outstanding. The main thing about the straight 8 is its a 'straight' cylinder arrangement. And they have a different type of power output than the V style engines. The V styles are more hi rpm horsepower engines and the 'straight' are more torq and lower rpm engines.

bob k. mando
01-24-2009, 04:02 PM
Doozy OT:
weird, i've seen several references now to Lycoming/Duesenberg. is this truly the origin of the Lycoming aircraft engine company?

duesy
01-24-2009, 04:21 PM
Duesenberg Model J engine manufacturing was outsourced to Lycoming. Prior models were fully produced in house.

Janderson
01-25-2009, 10:32 PM
Update

The 4 cyl. head I was so hopeful would work on the 263 is a no-go. The 263 bore spacing is too small. I then tried the larger bore spacing 320 head gasket on it and it was too large of a bore spacing:clonk: Still looking :D

Buick Guy
01-26-2009, 06:28 AM
Don't give up.:laugh_4:

bob k. mando
01-26-2009, 03:15 PM
The 263 bore spacing is too small. I then tried the larger bore spacing320 head gasket on it and it was too large of a bore spacing

please post the bore spacings that you're coming up with for these engines.

duesy
01-26-2009, 05:34 PM
Present acceptable bore spacing, it's a long way from a compatible head: Water jackets, studs, oil pass-thrus, mating surfaces, valve train, and so on. What are the chances?

Might be worth creating a preliminary design and cost estimate to determine feasibility for building a dozen or so SOHC x-flow heads.

Now could be a great time given the slow machine tool biz. An eager shop may be willing to absorb the initial development hours in anticipation of getting the manufacturing?

bob k. mando
03-09-2009, 08:42 PM
duesy
i found where you already posted the Model A bore spacings. elsewhere, i've seen references to 183ci for the Model A and 420ci for the Model J.

are these correct?

do you have the bore x stroke dimensions for either of these engines?

edit:
actually, i just found 3.75" x 4.74" for the J. are these correct? i'm getting a displacement of 418.81ci using those numbers.

also found this book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MDMFSp7xTp0C&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=duesenberg+bore+stroke&source=bl&ots=en4uSvDKR9&sig=nibc7zQRC3opsICH5DclmcIPMRo&hl=en&ei=RPG1SYesFp-atweFvN2-CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA183,M1

do you know anything about it?

duesy
03-10-2009, 06:39 AM
Duesenberg built only a handful of competition engines in the twenties including 91, 122, and 183 ci and some employed centrifugal superchargers. I know of two existing SOHC 183 and DOHC 122 engines. There were three principle passenger car engines: Model A 260 ci straight eight SOHC, Model X similar to Model A but lacking cross flow head; Model J 420 ci DOHC bore 3.75 x stroke 4.75 ins.

alleycat
03-14-2009, 02:23 PM
I have pretty much stayed out of this "what if" discussion about cross-flow heads for the str8 mainly because of it's near engeneering impossiability. However, I just saw something yesterday that has caused me to rethink it's possiability. I was out to my welder buddy's shop and on the floor were 2, 4 cylinder heads, DOHC, crossflow, aluminum, hemi type, obviously out of the 50's or early 60's. He thinks they are Italian, looks like Alfa to me. I did a quick tape measure check, about 3.75 C to C, even has the same goofy "paired" cylinder arrangment like Buick. It sits on a narrow block with about 4x4 bolt spacing. I did a quick head gasket measurement check when I got home and it's very close! This is a very robust head, not fancy at all. No fancy ribbing, light weight casting tricks, all the stuff you'd see in a head made in the last 20 odd years or so. It's just a plane-jane simple heavy-duty sand cast head. And the ports will KNOCK YOU OUT!!! This head could be welded on with almost wild abandon and not worry about hopeless warping, and still have plenty of meat left to "straighten things out". This baby looks "do-able". If anybody out there reading this has any Alfa pals, you might want to go visit them and jerk a head off the engine over a beer or two! I think I'll go out Monday with a head gasket and a dial caliper and do a little more in depth check, hopefully they will be around for a day or two. alleycat

duesy
03-14-2009, 04:34 PM
Eureeka! Meeting with an Alfa guru next week so please post photos - and anything else you know - of the subject cylinder head. Could also be Lancia, Fiat, Rover, Ginetta, Lotus or a number of oddball marques. Twin cam straight eight.... now we're talking. Thanks for chiming in and looking forward to further clues...

Janderson
03-15-2009, 12:18 PM
good work alleycat! I am still looking too! Haven't given up :bana:

duesy
03-15-2009, 05:46 PM
Ol, Yaller, you're looking in the rear view mirror. We've heard the tired arguments in suport of mechanical brakes, points ignition, carb vs. EFI, whatever. 1930s engine designs were inherently limited to the fuels available in the era. I can't speak directly to Alfa's porting, but several decades of racing achievement would seem to suggest an effective design DNA. Buick built a fantastic engine for the mass market, not a thoroughbred competition/performance motor which might see reality from AlleyCat's discovery. I'm anxious to learn more!

duesy
03-15-2009, 07:23 PM
Project not worth doing absent OHC and cross-flow, in my view. Put all the valve train in new head and forgettabout stock Buick cam and push rods. Drive cam(s) from crank via toothed belts, or chain for those with deeper pockets. At this point the concept too abstract to convey much comfort on the build/cost side of the equation, I agree. So let's see what AlleyCat comes up with and price the conversion based on a specific set of components and design criteria. Lotta talented engineers out there looking for work. Hey, we gotta start somewhere.

duesy
03-15-2009, 07:36 PM
Ol, Yaller... good points and can't argue with your own experiences yet testing one Alfa head is not a persuasive data point. Sure, a number of lower lost options might, in the end, be more viable and there's no denying the cool-factor associated with DOHC. The challenge to make something old perform in an entirely new way has its own allure. We're reading this forum because we like Buick eights and perhaps a small percentage of us are also willing to invest a couple thou in shared build costs to create something totally wild. It's not how fast you go but how you go fast.

39CENT
03-16-2009, 09:40 AM
Janderson,
When you run a stock head in the "inline" class at Bonneville, as long as you run under 325 cu. in. you run what is called XO class. If you run over 325, but under 375 cu. in. you run XXO class. The same holds true if you remain under 325 cu. in. and run a non-stock, or after-market head. The caveat here is that the cam in all cases must remain in the stock location. The engine must have been produced prior to 1955. Complicated, but essentially the only restriction is that the cam remain in the block. As a rough measurement, the 320 has about 4 1/8 bore centers. I'll see if I can find a gasket to trace over and send to you to use as a template. This may be a futile search, but it's an interesting exercise, and at this point a cheap one, which is pretty rare these days. Doug

now just to throw something into the fray. About an OHC head on the Buick straight 8. One head has come up thats ready to bolt onto one. It is 2 Toyota 22r heads welded together. And if the regulation in the record books is for the camshaft to remain in the original engine, well that is possible because the Buick camshaft can turn the Toyota cam off the front [1 to 1 ratio] wih a belt, or chain. So therefore the Buick camshaft remains in the stock location, [a very Smokey Yunick trick that I,m sure that will bring up some discussions by the lakesters]. But in order to come up with a pushrod head I havnt seen anything come up yet.

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=374&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1198516137

alleycat
03-16-2009, 11:22 AM
OK, boys & girls! I just got back from my welder buddys shop and had a look-see at the afor mentioned heads. The bad news: they won't just bolt on. The good news: they are smack inbetween the 248-263 and the 320. Every direction you go. They could work for either engine. These heads have some Italian-ish word cast in the front top and the nunbers 1243. I did some looking on E-bay, it looks as if there are some almost identicle heads on there and they are indeed Alfa. It looks as if Alfa kept the same-ish engine architecture for quite a while. So, we would'ent be looking for a one year only head. One of the heads is priced at: .99 cents....Even if it bid up to say THREE DOLLARS!!! a creative preson could snag a head or two, do some cuttin and fittin and not be out a lot of money, and the expierment could be enlighting. AND, at this point, it would be a expierment! That being said, these heads look to be, thus far, the most likely. I was of the hope that butting two heads and welding would work, well...The only way is to work from the center 2 cylinders and cut and add cylinder blocks front and rear and weld the whole works togather. The 320 would be a little more of a chore since it has the "paired" cylinder arrangment. I woulden't even consider the 248. But, the 263 is a real contender, and easyer, with even cylinder spacing. The 320 has the inches but the 263 with a set of pistons can go out to 308 and still have .010 or.020 left for "piston related unhapiness" and that extra 12 inches is neither here nor there in the overall mix. So, it'll still take a lot if welding, thats a given, these heads are not flimisy and there could be a lot of them out there, for cheep. You will still need a fairly good machine shop to make all the little bits, but I think it may be possiable......alleycat

duesy
03-16-2009, 11:49 AM
Awesome!

Can you get more info on that Alfa cylinder head model/year? Any photos or even eBay links would be helpful.

As for the engineering, why not simply rely on block attachment to secure multiple head sections as per bore spacing? That's assuming water jacketing, oil lines, etc. can be connected inside the gap areas, and forgettabbout welding? Line-bore cam journals in place if necessary. Lash up a cog belt cam drive and this sucker might just work for easy money. Sounds like a low risk effort worth pursuing.

Now, what models/years is the 263? I'll be on the lookout for a donor engine along with Alfa heads pending your response.

Thanks AlleyCat!

bob k. mando
03-16-2009, 01:58 PM
the 263 is a real contender, and easyer, with even cylinder spacing.

the 263 uses different bore spacings than the 248? would you happen to have those numbers handy, Alleycat?




Now, what models/years is the 263?

fairly short production run, actually. 1950-53.

bob k. mando
03-16-2009, 02:36 PM
308" from a 263 is 1/4" over.
Does that really leave any room?


just think how much weight you'd be taking out of the block.:laugh_4:

Buick Guy
03-16-2009, 05:36 PM
I've narrowed the search for a cylinder head to a design made for the Rover by an outside company. They were made for a high performance application by Wildcat Engineering in England. The only problem is that I can't find any information or source that you can buy them from affordably. They are made for the 215 engine that Buick made in the 60's with big ports, big valves and they have close to 320 bore spacing. Short of having a special head made, these appear to be hopeful. Doug:confused:

bob k. mando
03-16-2009, 07:57 PM
They are made for the 215 engine

Rover derivatives of the 215, actually. Rover had this design in production from 1965-2004 and displacements up to 5L.

bob k. mando
03-17-2009, 01:25 AM
not to mention which, if you're dead set on a Rover head just wait a year or so for TA to get their new AL Rover heads on the market. bound to be cheaper than the Wildcat stuff.

or you could just start cutting up sets of their v6 AL heads. the 231ci / 3.8L / 4.1L engines are all derived ( 4.24" bore spacing ) from the 215ci v8. head on over to turbobuick.com and start looking for some used ones to play with.

bob k. mando
03-18-2009, 11:55 AM
or you could just start cutting up sets of their v6 AL heads.

having thought about it a bit more, this is actually the best possible idea.

i'm sure those v6 guys have blown up more than a few heads with all of the boost they run. you should go to turbobuick.com and request damaged heads. you're going to be cutting them all up anyways, you might be able to get them to donate 3 or 4 of them to you.

ol' yaller
05-28-2009, 12:51 PM
we are trying to sell our overhead cam project but for some reason the ad keeps getting dumped from the classifieds; so here it is.
If you are interested PM and I will send you a bunch of pictures




320 straight eight overhead cam conversion project based on two Toyota 22R heads,has been referred to on this board as the "Mell Tull head". not a complete motor or bolt on kit. it has never been run. there is still a lot of work to be done but the hard stuff is done
includes:
2 heads (1 straight port 1 swirl port)
1 unfinished short deck big bore block
(bore finishes 3.75"+)
1 unground cam blank
1 idler shaft
1 cam gear
2 idler gears
1 timing cover
1 cam chain tensor
1 set hard faced cam followers
1 valve cover
1 set ARP head studs
9 Jaguar con rods (for use with short deck block)


$4500 or best offer
serious inquiries only http://www.teambuick.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=36&pictureid=289

39CENT
06-01-2009, 10:42 AM
OK GUYS! here is the wildest project yet, for a straight 8!

ol' yaller
06-21-2009, 10:37 AM
just to let everyone know that the overhead cam conversion is still available and that the price is negotiable, I have a bunch of pictures I can send anyone who is really interested.

braol
06-24-2009, 11:09 PM
Here's my partner Frank Morris' other cars. This is where the inspiration for the Jag motor came from. The car on the trailer is a 52 Roadmaster powered by a 320 inch straight 8 that is twin turboed,EFI, and intercooled. 700-4R trans, with Jag front and rear suspension and air ride. The tow rig is his wife Robin's 57 Caballero wagon, 425 cu in w/th400 and 9in Ford rear. The combo really attracts a crowd. Doug

How's you mate the 200 4R transmission to the straight 8??

Buick Guy
06-25-2009, 06:37 AM
He built a 1 1/2 inch thick steel plate adapter, and adapted a Big Block Chev flexplate to it and mounted a gear reduction Chev starter on the bottom edge of the adapter plate for the trans. It took a lot of cutting,milling, and math. You can save time by going to www.transmissionadapters.com (http://www.transmissionadapters.com) . They have done the hard part. It seems expensive, but if your time is worth 10 cents an hour it's a money saver.
Doug

David Juricic
07-26-2009, 08:43 AM
I was playing with the idea of making my own head for my 320 engine. I am an Electronic Tech by trade, but have done some Mechanical Engineering in my day. I found on line companies that are willing to machine you any custom head you want for a price. They will even help you design it. You can research these companies on line.

onetruerick
05-17-2010, 08:03 AM
I have a pair of 1955 Chrysler Hemi heads. They have a square bolt pattern. If a person was REALLY determined, it would be possible to make 8 copies of a single cylinder's combustion chamber and ports in wax, then put them together and have a mold built around them using casting sand. Then have the mold heated to 900 degrees or so to evaporate the wax, and have it poured full of aluminum alloy. Then a couple dozen hours spent machining it, and you would have an aluminum crossflow Hemi head for the str8. It would take a huge amount of work, but it could be done. You would need to maintain the same port arrangement (EIIEEIIEEIIEEIIE) to make the original cam and crank designs work.

kitabel
05-17-2010, 10:02 AM
I see I'm here by myself again.

1940 limited
05-20-2010, 03:29 AM
ok,
new here but have read this post and the some of the major concerns are oil to the head and cooling the head.
1 is it possible to make the block and the head seperate cooling circuits? somehow split the out put of the waterpump and feed half straight to the head???
2 my oil filter feeds back into the head, is that enough supply to handle the rockers or is there another feed internally?

just my thoughts.

39CENT
05-20-2010, 08:27 AM
I,m thinking that the hemi heads would be the ultimate in breathing but may prove to be unrealistic due to the pushrod angles. ???? Maybe one of the mopar 'poly heads?
They seem breathe pretty good.

onetruerick
05-20-2010, 09:45 AM
Good point about the pushrod angles. The head would have to 'overhang' the block on the pushrod side the same way the hemi head does. If this were not enough, you could go with an intermediate shaft on the exhaust valve.
It would probably be best to reconfigure the oil and water flow with the new head. It should be possible to use oil flow through hydraulic lifters like later engines if new design lifters are used. For the water, it would probably be best to flow the water from the pump to the front of the head and then from the rear of the head to the block, especially if the new head were aluminum.

1946_HoldenBody
01-17-2011, 07:19 AM
An old topic but a good thought provoker. Has anyone looked at the ford Kent engine? OHV cross flow with no combustion chamber. Combustion chamber is in the piston. These engines are about 82mm bore. Near as dammit to a 263 bore I think. Good port shape and go like a cut cat for their size, so must flow pretty well. I have no idea about the bolt layout or bore spacings though.

kitabel
01-17-2011, 08:33 AM
The 1.6 liter Kent bore pitch is 96mm, about 3.78".
Bore is 3.188".

ebbsspeed
01-18-2011, 02:05 PM
Educate me on what bore pitch is? Is it the same as bore spacing, or bore center-to-center? Thanks!

bob k. mando
01-18-2011, 04:16 PM
yep, that's what kitabel is referring too.

PolarRoller
10-30-2011, 04:42 PM
Well, I am missing a few of the finer points, but just wanted to let you know there are people watching this with interest, so, don't feel you are by yourself as someone said. Keep it up..it's a worthy discussion.
S