Hey everyone. I have a '63 Riv with the 401 and it has A/C, so there is a condenser in front of the newly re-cored rad. I am running a Flex-a-lite electric fan that turns on at 180 degrees (2800 cfm). I have installed an Auto-meter mechanical temp gauge in the front of the passenger side head , where the factory cold/hot light sensor was. The problem is that even when running down the highway at 65 mph the engine still creeps up to 210 degrees, and it was only about 80 degrees outside temp. I am looking for any suggestions you guys have including some tips on where to find a set of underdrive pulleys or something that could help.:confused:
Thanks in advance.

What else do you have under the hood besides A/C?

Are you getting good airflow across the radiator?

Is the A/C Factory or aftermarket?

Where is the sensor for the fan?

Does it run off the sensor location for the gauge or from somewhere else?

What was the airflow rate for the factory fan?

Sounds like an airflow issue but it could be something else entirely, I might have some more insight if you can answer the above questions.

Bob:confused:

Since you are having overheating problems at highway speed as well as at slower speeds, I suggest doing the following: 1. Make sure the fan belt is tight. 2. Inspect the fan belt at both the water pump and crank pulleys. The belt should contact the sides of the "v" on the pulley. This means the "v"s or sides of the pulleys should be clean and shiny and the base of the pulleys darker. To verify this, remove the belt(s) and coat the entire "v", including the bottom, with a magic marker. Reinstall the belt and run the engine. Verify that the belt is contacting the sides of the pulley. If the belt is contacting the bottom of either pulley, you are getting slippage and reduced water pump RPM. Replace the belt with one that contacts the sides or replace the worn out pulley. 3. With the engine at operating temp (or higher), look at the lower radiator hose and rev the engine, if the hose "sucks in" or collaspes, replace the hose. To further check the lower hose, if you are confident you can do this safely, manually squeeze the lower hose with the engine running. If it collaspes or deflects easily, replace the hose. 4. Replace the thermostat on general principles. Since you have an aftermarket electric fan, I would consider this as suspect. If you still have the parts, reinstall the factory fan and fan shroud if the car came with one. Install the electric fan on the front of the AC condenser and wire it to come on when the compressor comes on. However, since you are having problems at highway speeds as well, I would not think the aftermarket fan is the root cause of the problem. Look at the way air flow is "managed" starting at the grille. Try to determine if the air is flowing through the radiator and not around it. This may take some careful analysis. Retarded timing can also cause an engine to run hot. Time the engine to specs. Remove the cap and rotor and make sure the advance weights are moving freely. After you solve the problem, consider adding a container of "water wetter" such as Redline, it really works and is added insurance. The challenge on 40 year old cars is that anything could be the problem. People change things over the years and weird things wear out. It would be appreciated if you stay in touch and let us know how you solved the problem. Good luck.

Here are some more details on the car, as Mr. Bates requested.
It has the usual Riv stuff, like power steering, A/C compressor, alternator and waterpump running off the engine. As far as "what else is under the hood"- power brakes, cruise all the regulars.
I am certain that I have good airflow through the new rad because when the fan is on and I hang on of those "heavy" blue paper towels in front of the grille it gets sucked to the grill and will stay there as long as the fan is on.
The A/C system is 100% factory.
The fan sensor is one of those little "bulb" style ones that sits between two fins on the rad. You just gently push it through the core. It is located right below the coolant inlet port on the rad. I think this is a good location for it because when I have the fan set to turn on at 160 degrees it comes on when the gauge reads about 165. The gauge sensor is in the head, where the factory "hot/cold" sensor belongs, it is NOT on the exhaust side but I would still believe that this is one of the hottest areas of the engine.
I have read that nailheads do like to run on the hot side, but how hot is too hot (what is normal operating temp for you guys?).

I have checked for belt slip but had kinda ruled it out due to the wear pattern on the freshly painted pulleys. The belts do not seem to be bottoming out in any of the three grooves.
As far as the bottom hose collapsing, that was a concern of mine when I sent the rad out for recoring so I went and got myself one of the coiled wires that newer vehicles use in the bottom hose. So that is definately not an issue. As I stated in the relpy to Mr. Robert Bates, I also do not think the airflow of the fan is suspect because of the huge amount of air that it pulls through the grille.
Now for the issue of timing as Mottrodder suggested. I would tend to believe that this may be part of the problem. When we put the car back together and I was trying to time it I realized that the outer ring on the balancer had slipped out of alignment. I put the #1 cylinder at TDC, marked the balancer at zero, and timed the engine to 12 degrees BTDC. Now, last week when I installed the MSD distributor I found even my new TDC mark had moved so far out that I had to set my digital timing light to 90 degrees advance to even see the old/facrory timing mark. So to time it this time I just got it running and set it by ear. However, I am sure that it is not retarded since I have 22 degrees of advance set in the distributor and I took the car out anf when I floored it the engine rattled a little bit. I took the car home and backed it off until it would stop pinging at full throttle. Definately not the best way, but it'll do the job until I get the balancer rebuilt. By the way, who rebuilds them?
Now, onto the Water Wetter. I plan on trying this once we figure out the actual problem. It seems like a band-aid type of fix to me. Once the car runs reliably at about 190, then the Water Wetter will go in.
Sorry I wrote so much but I wanted to answer the questions as well as I can because I need to get this fixed properely.
Thanks for the quick replys guys. Sounds like we may be getting somewhere.

Ok..........what degree thermostat are you running?

I run a 180 degree thermostat in my 1955 264 and never have a problem, but the motor is completely factory stock, for now. When I got the car it had no thermostat and ran about 160 degrees all the time

Does the fan manufacturer have a recomendation for sensor location?

Bob Bates:shifter:

You have done a lot of troubleshooting already. So now that the "easy" stuff is out of the way, the fun begins. This is where I would start looking for odd stuff. The new mechanical gage be be reading too hot, you may not have a problem at all. Verify the gage by placing the bulb in boiling water and see how close to 212 it reads, or place a hand held thermometer on the top hose (or wherever you think is best) and see what kind of temp reading you get. A meat thermometer with some kind of insulation over it may work. Also, the reading may be accurate but maybe Buick put their sensor purposely in a hot spot. The coolant temp overall may be within an acceptable range. Again, you may not have problem. Does the car eventually boil over or continue to run hotter and hotter? I am running out of ideas. Maybe someone else can contribute more.

Regarding rebuilding your damper: There was an excellent article in the Oct 1996 Street Rodder magazine about an outfit named "DAMPER DUDES" There are (or at least were in 1996) at: 1055 Parkview Ave, Redding Ca 96001. Info phone 916-244-7225 Order phone 800-413-2673. The article was very complimentary to the point that I saved it in case I needed a rebuilt damper. I have never had to contact them, so I can't recommend, critcize, or even confirm they are still in business. Please continue to keep us informed on what you are doing. It is always fun to learn something when someone else is doing the work! Please note, my recommendation for water wetter was for AFTER the root cause was found and the problem corrected. I get the impression you do not like band aid fixes and neither do I. Good luck.

Damper Dudes do a good job of revulcanizing new rubber on the old balancer. ONE CAUTION!!!!!!! Make absolutely sure where the fine balancing pins are located in the small outer holes of the damper. On a piece of paper mark down the specific locations & also tell Damper Dudes to please replace them in the exact same spots. When they rebuild these dampers most always the pins are removed. If you don't know where they were or how many you will be fighting an engine vibration that you didn't have before & will drive you as crazy as this cooling system thing.
Too little timing is just as bad as too much timing. With most stock NailHeads total timing should be about 30*-34* total mechanical. Add another 10*-14* vacuum advance & timing issues related to cooling should be irrelavant. One thing many forget is that the coolant can flow TOO fast & not have time to transfer the heat. In this case a restrictor needs to be installed. This could be as simple as a big washer in the upper hose to slow down coolant flow. Try different size openings in the washer. I use 5/8ths. of an inch.
Just more thoughts.

Tom T.

I have a 62 401 with a 160 thermo, and the hottest it gets is about 180 going down the highway. I don't have a/c or anything on it. It has stock fan and no shroud. In stop and go traffic in the summer, it gets hot on me. But, driving down the road it hasn't overheated.

How old is the water pump? Could the impellers be corroded down and not circulating water as it should? Are you for sure that the thermostat is opening all the way, and what temp is it? It maybe stuck in one spot. Could you have an obstruction in your water jacket?

What gas are you running in it? If you are not running minimum 91 octane, then you will ping way early. Therefore, you might have the timing set to far back. I would definatly get the harmonic balancer figured out before I drove it anymore. That still could be your issue.
Next would be to try an aluminum radiator.

Can you bring the temp down with the electric fan?

Telriv, thanks for the info on the dampers. I knew dampers had a lot to do with engine balance, but didn't know what the real world solution damper repair/replacement was. Some additional thoughts: Could the thermostat in upside down? Also, too lean an air/fuel ratio can cause overheating. Has the carb been altered or replaced? Very remote possibility, but easy to check item-replace the fuel filter, it may be causing a lean condition at speed. Ask the radiator shop if the new core has sufficient rows of tubes and if the fins per inch are near what the factory unit had. If the problem still exists after all items have been checked, it is time to recheck and then start over. Some questions that may offer more info: When did the hot running condition begin? if the car is left to idle for a long time, does it still go to 210, or does it stay at a lower temp? How hot will it actually get if you drive it for a long time? Why was the core replaced? rot, old age, leaks, or overheating? How did the coolant look when you drained the system? Could the engine be crudded up" If you flushed the engine, could crud have left the engine and plugged the new core? From your remarks, it sounds like you did a lot of work, did you rebuild the engine, change the cam etc? Can head gaskets be installed improperly, blocking some passages? If you have access to one of those hand held battery powered infared thermometers, you could get a reading on coolant temp in the radiator. Since you have new information, (actual temp from the new gage). You may be suffering from excess information syndrome. Maybe at always ran that hot and was OK , you just didn't know the actual temp. Thanks for keeping us informed. Good luck. Hope your next post details your success.

Just a thought , but you said that the fan thermo switch in between some core tubes in the rad.It would seem to me that it should be installed in the water jacket of the engine block.That is where most are placed on the eletric fans setups I've worked on.If this is how this is ment to be then I would feel both hoses (upper and lower)and see which one gets warmest before the themostate open.I believe you will find it will be the lower one.

Rocky

My 1963 Riviera runs great. Even with a new water pump, however after drives of about 25 miles on a hot day the "hot" light comes on when I'm idleing. I nursed it about a half mile to my driveway when the light came on but in the course of doing that I heard a banging coming from under the car. It went away as after a few seconds of mild acceleration. Otherwise the car runs great. What happened and did it cause any damage ?

I've had many '63 and '64 Rivieras and they all ran hot (200 - 220) on hot days because the radiators in them are too SMALL. You can add all the electric fans you want; change out the thermostats to 160s; or adjust timing, but they will still run hot because the factory put in a too small radiator period. There is not enough cross section area and the only thing you can do is find a good radiator shop that knows what they're doing and have them build you a 4 row radiator. 3 rows won't cool it.
I did that to my '63 and it now runs 190 on hot days and 170 on cooler days.
Good luck!

What would cause the banging/knocking sound coming from my Riv on acceleration ? It went away but I'm concerned I cause some damage. Was it misfiring ? Was it backfiring ? Could the oil pressure have dropped and cause some serious piston slap ? The dipstick says the oil is fine, nothing is leaking and there's coolant in the overflow. Any ideas ? This happened about a half mile from home when the "hot" light came on.

These engines have 10.25:1 compression ratio. They need a high octane fuel around 100. You can run pump premium at around 92 or 93 octane and it will detonate on a hot engine. You might have to retard the timing to get it to not make noise.

Well, thanks for ALL of the ideas and suggestions. Next week I will take the damper off and send it in for a rebuild. That way I can time it without guessing and eliminate the possibility of the timing being the problem, it should have been done in the first place! Once I get it back on the car I will post wether it worked or not.
I drove the car to a show on saturday (very hot day) and 5 miles out of town (at 65 mph) it was already at 200. I had to stop and have a drink:beers: at a town thats 18 miles away because it slowly made its way up to 210. The show was only about 6 miles more. When we got to the show a buddy of mine had his infrared heat sensor along and the head reading was 234 degrees!!! On the water crossover/thermostat housing tube it read 214 (the same as the guage was showing) and the top tank on the rad read 192. All of this was with no thermostat and straight water, bad idea for the bearing in the NEW waterpump I know, but it was just to see if it would help. I dont understand how the engine can run so hot when the coolant temp on top of the rad (before actually cooling off in the rad) is so low.
I will keep posting on this when I have more info.
Thanks again, you guys are great!

Hey............water does not have the best cooling qualities by itself, that is why antifreeze/antiboil is used............also running without a thermostat should make it cooler not hotter!!!........Mine didn't have a thermostat when I got it and it never got up to temp.....not the other way around................Get a good thermostat and the proper antifreeze/water mix and then check it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Also you could have an air pocket somewhere and not getting good coolant flow to all parts:confused:
Bob

I'm going to reiterate what I said before: you need a good radiator not a stock one. Find a radiator shop where there is a person that knows how to build you a good quality 4 row radiator and it will run a lot cooler.

The straight water/ no thermostat combo was a last resort kind of idea. Does anyone have a 401 damper they would sell me. If it needs rebuilding thats fine, I just dont want to park the car for that long! One in good condition would be even better.
Thanks.

Not looking to start a controversy, only to start some discussion on this topic as I am still trying to figure it out.

From what I've been told, straight water DOES have better heat transfer properties than a 50/50 mix of water/antifreeze. The antifreeze's purpose is to lower the freezing point of the solution and also adds anti-corrosion ingredients.

Running WITHOUT a thermostat can cause the engine to run HOTTER at cruising speeds because the coolant is flowing too fast and the radiator cannot do its job properly. Also some restriction is necessary to maintain back pressure in the engine for the pump to perform to specs. Pumps will cause cavitation without the designed backpressure. Cavitation is bad, as acts as an insulator and reduces heat transfer. Race cars run without thermostats but incorporate a "restrictor plate" (washer) in place of the thermostat to maintain the design parameters of the cooling system. Consider the square area restriction of an open thermostat versus the square area restiction of a wide open (no thermostat) flow path. I'm guessing it is about about an 1:18 difference.

Anyone have any real life experiences with these concepts?

Regards
Jim

Thanks guys for your answers on my coolant questions. My 401 is going to get a 4 core radiator soon. I think that's going to be the ticket. Otherwise my Riv runs like the dickens. Hope to post a picture of it soon.

Once you get your new radiator make sure you have the 7 blade fan and the right fan clutch. Best that I have found so far is the fan clutch for an early 80's Estate Wagon with a 455 and then get the extreme duty version.
Mike S

One thing I have found out with mine is that it runs best between 190 & 210.How many blades are on your fan? You'll need at least 6 blades or it will not pull enough air through to cool it,also I had to go from a 2 core to a 3 and finally to a 4 core to keep it where I felt was a good temp.It stayed around 185 when I did that,in one of the post someone said something about to little or to much air fuel mixture that makes a world of difference.Something else to concider as goofy as i may sound is your oil pressure up where it needs to be? For some reason when you have a fualty oil pump or not enough pressure it will run on the warm side.Personally I would've put the sensor on the lower side close to the hose outlet.Something else to take into thought is how hot is the weather there? The road heat could be playing with you a bit also,was or is there a lower air dam? Some require a good one for proper air flow if it's broke or missing then I would replace or fix it.It's next to impossible to place the thermostat in upside down,even though I've done it once(it broke the neck).Msd has a habit of making things run from about 6-10 degrees hotter for some reason-you sure you are'nt off a tooth on the dis. when it was dropped in? Just a few things more to think about, have you checked for an intake or exhaust gasket possibly starting to go out? good luck

A lot of good, practical information has been posted on this thread. After reviewing them, I can only think of one addtional item to check/do that hasen't been specifically mentioned: Does your Riv have a "catch can" or a true coolant recovery system? A coolant recovery system, I have read, can increase cooling capacity by 20 percent. (A coolant recovery system has the overflow enter the container through at the bottom so the coolant can be sucked back into the radiator as the system cools down after driving.) After making sure you have one, or installing a recovery system, I would suggest you run a thermostat, install a 50 percent antifreeze mixture and a container of water wetter and see how it runs. Check the level of coolant in the recovery container after the first three to five "driving cycles,"and add coolant if necessary to fill the space left from air in the system. If you have to add coolant it means you had air pockets and you are solving this problem with the addition of more coolant. After all that has been done, at this point I would think water wetter would be a legitimate fix and not a band aid measure. Good luck.

Hey............water does not have the best cooling qualities by itself, that is why antifreeze/antiboil is usedBob

NOT TRUE!!

Water has one of the highest Specific Heats (It takes I calorie to raise 1ml of H20 by 1 degree).That's a lot of energy. The only reason antifree is added is to lower the freezing point of water and to add lubricants for the water pump bearings, rusting, etc. This brings up another point: make sure you use dionized, distilled water. Regular tap water can have a lot of undissolved crap in it.

That's why a 50/50 mix is the maximum ratio advised.

I used too have overheating issues with my '70 Toronado GT (455 V-8 sitting on a THM-425 geneates a lot of heat!!) Even with monster-wide radiator, transmission cooler, electric fans, it would run about 190F in SB, CA. Later in the Desert, it over heated constantly.

The person who mentioned the radiator may be right. i had a guy in Santa Barbara handbuild a 4 -core radiator for my '63, bending each fin by hand!. After a thorough flush, a flex-fan, I never encountered any over heating.

my '73 and '76 have no problems, although that's a different area.